Relocating the office...where to?

[cscotthendry]

Armidale...

 

 

[facthunter]

The last time I went to Evans head it rained 340mm in a day. It's a bit close to the pounding surf for me to want to leave a plane tethered. Griffith doesn't do it either as there is not really much to see there and it is a security controlled airport with no real air service. Corowa has plenty of cheap accommodation and fairly good facilities. Benalla is another possibility.. These are just aerodromes . The office has to be in a bigger place with regular major airservice access. The SY-ML route is one of the heaviest trafficked in the world. I'm led to believe. Office space there would be expensive, but you probably only need something at Airport West if at Melbourne. I've seen very good facilities in Industrial estates set up at reasonable cost. Nev

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Nev,

 

I wouldn't have thought of Ballarat either but it has plenty to recommend it. A very pleasant city although winters are a bit brisk for some.

 

I do believe we will get out of Canberra and in our lifetime. Our GM is not committed to Canberra like the previous one and is interested in getting RA-Aus a better permanent base.

 

It seems to be inevitable that we will have a smaller Board and when its down to 7 or 5, how Board Members get to the Office becomes less important. The two Board Meetings currently mandated by the Constitution are required to be held in conjunction with the AGM and at NATFLY. We seem to have created the good "tradition" of supporting the SAAA's Ausfly by having our AGM at Narromine and with the other General Meeting scheduled for NATFLY, Board Meetings will be at Temora and Narromine for at least the next couple of years. Having our head office at either seems attractive.

 

Narromine has Dubbo just up the road for good RPT and cheap and plentiful accommodation at both Dubbo and Narromine. Narromine in fact has a great little motel at the airport - if you book a year or two in advance! I'm pretty sure it might once have been an Officers Mess - it certainly has that feel about it.

 

Temora is not that far from Wagga for RPT but hopefully NSW/Vic/Tas/SA/Sth Qld Board Memebrs fly themselves in.

 

The two Board Meetings are currently mandated by the Constitution to be in conjunction with the AGM and NATFLY. two but it is not unimaginable that Board Members could assemble at a Capital City airport for Board Meetings.

 

Nev, what would you think of Maitland, NSW (YMND) as the venue for RA-Aus Office and NATFLY?

 

Don

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Armidale...

Armidale, NSW? Why? How would it go as a venue for NATFLY?

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm very familiar with West Maitland. The office aspect doesn't "click" as I see it. You need an airservice that is above "feeder" Dash 8 etc to get reliability with access and the lowest seat mile cost.

 

Ballarat aerodrome is under a heritage overlay and should be there for ever. It's not an expensive place and a fairly easy drive and train ride from Melbourne. The more I think about it the more it seems a real possibility. Cool at times but so is Paris and London. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

The majority of RAA pilots live in SE QLD and NSW. I think Nth NSW will be the closest for the majority of members.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Paris is an excellent suggestion, I have always wanted to spend Easter in Paris, and my wife would love it, she might even encourage me to go every year!

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I might well be in glass half empty mode at the moment....But here goes..........

 

So the way things are within RAAus at present we have a number of single points of failure within the employee base at present. If we move from where we are to "justperfectsville" what is the chance realistically of having all current single points of failure smiling with family ready to just drop all and move because we felt it was a good idea.....

 

1) Address those vitally important thing's that are affecting my ability to know with a degree of certainty that we will all still be doing this aviation thing in 10yrs time

 

2) Address with CASA those things that mean we have to live with and like the fact that we have a whole bunch of single points of failure.

 

3) Address with CASA those things that mean that the next incumbent for the single point of failure position X is a roll of the dice he/she might be a winner, or a complete loss but we wont know until long after appointment......if the latter sorry for the timebombs that tick away just waiting for a CASA audit to set off.....

 

I agree that in the longer timeframe it would be better for us if we could free up working capital that is currently locked in expensive realestate.....but only when the more importantthangs that could mean game over at CASA's whim are dealt with and the employee team are scratching their ar$e wondering what good change they should consider next.....

 

there is so much that needs to be done that IMHO we cant go on without a priority list (or at least a visible priority list)

 

If we are based at an airfield it better because it was the cheapest realestate in the neighbourhood because today its not an essential part of day to day operations that couldn't be solved with a telephone rather than a fly in, as long as the local airport is available for a GM / fly in. We are talking regional centers here where a long trip is 10 minutes in a car from one side of town right across to the other right?

 

Andy

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Armidale...

Air's too thin.

 

 

[kgwilson]

South Grafton. Why?

 

1. No RPT but RPT airport only 10 mins drive away.
    
    
   
2. Pub 2 mins walk
    
    
   
3. Mogas 2 mins walk
    
    
   
4. Another Pub 3 mins walk
    
    
   
5. Several more Pubs within 5 mins walk
    
    
   
6. Motels, shops, Post office etc 5 mins walk
    
    
   
7. All the walking will keep visiting pilots fit
    
    
   
8. Is in northern NSW not far from SE QLD
    
    
   
9. Great clubhouse currently being refurbished
    
    
   
10. Only floods every couple of years
     
     
    

 

 

Nah with all this why should we ruin it.

 

 

[kaz3g]

It seems entirely logical to me that the office should be located on an airfield. It also seems eminently sensible to me that the office should move from Canberra. The money from its sale would finance the move, purchase a really decent hangar with adjoining offices, workshop and meeting room, and probably cover the cost of a decent upgrade to the IT infrastructure as well.

 

Griffith still seems a really fair and equitable choice.

 

It has exceptionally good weather throughout the year, whereas Ballarat and many other places along the Great Divide are often socked in. It has RPT but, as I said before, the GA area and the security area are separated; this created no difficulties a few years ago at an AAAA fly-in with around 120 aircraft. It is actually a really nice town with excellent amenities and good housing at reasonable prices.

 

But, most importantly it doesn't unfairly advantage any particular segment of the membership over any other in respect of the distances to be travelled apart from those in WA and NT who will always be disadvantaged unless the annual flyin is rotated amongst all the States.

 

Look at the membership distribution map in Sport Pilot and think about options that could work for most members, not just those at one location on the eastern seaboard.

 

Kaz

 

 

[SDQDI]

Definitely needs to be west of the divide and on an airfield I feel would be nice, but having said that we need to make sure firstly that we are here to stay and secondly that the employees are happy to move/live in the nominated location.

 

Naromine might be a good place to visit for a few days but how many Raaus employees and their families would enjoy living there fulltime? It's a complicated issue because if you want regular flights and a family/employee friendly location you start to move away from the ul friendly strips.

 

And just to add another option why not think about just buying a property outside of a decent sized town and setting up a RAA airfield? Wouldn't take much to organise a little bus to shuttle to the major airfield 10 or 20 k's away and be on our own ul friendly strip.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Andy,

 

You make some very good points. It had been my view as well that relocation to a permanent home at an airport was not top of the priorities. However, when Mark Clayton raised it in the Feb SportPilot I began to wonder if this is not a bloody good idea whose time has come.

 

Hard to know on the basis of info coming from the Board or Management but it seems most of the Aircraft Registration debacle is behind us. We are close to having new Ops and Tech Manuals and while there are plenty of other things the GM and Board Members can amuse themselves with like L1 Maintenance, there is no good reason a few good things can't happen in parallel.

 

This as a Project only needs Mark Clayton to take it on as the Project Sponsor and a competent Project Manager like yourself to organise the process and a few willing hands to the ground work and write reports. I believe a recommendation from Mark to the Board could be put to the Board Meeting at the AGM.

 

I don't see much point in running a plebiscite of all Members as the decision has to be correct rather than popularist.

 

I do see the permanent location of RA-Aus as a key part of the 5 year strategic plan that includes decisions on Board size and form and place of incorporation.

 

Getting to the optimum answer does not need to involve Rocket Surgery :-) just a sound process. In the end there are likely to be as few as five genuine candidates and choosing the optimum won't be the hard thing. Getting the transition planning correct will be.

 

I'm keen to see this project run.

 

Don

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Definitely needs to be west of the divide . . .

Why? Because of the weather West of the Divide or the difficulty crossing the divide?

 

If the problem is crossing the divide, then you would have it East of the Divide because vastly more members live East (or South) of the Divide than live West.

 

If it is because of drier weather West of the Divide we would need to look hard at the actual data and not go on anecdotal evidence. For example, I lived in Wagga for two years and there were many, many days when the fog didn't lift until 11 am or later and rolled in again around 3 pm. Evans Head is famous for heavy rain mainly because they have scheduled their fly-in for the sub-tropical wet season. Somewhere 50 kms from the Coast like Maitland (Rutherford) gets about 30" (750mm) of rain a year comparable with many locations West of the Divide. The issue with Maitland would be that most pilots heading for Maitland would need to cross the Divide, many twice! Access to the Hunter Valley from the West is via the Murrurundi Gap or over the Liverpool Ranges. These two places are famous for having fog (cloud) to the ground - but then that's just anecdotal.

 

. . . we need to make sure firstly that we are here to stay and secondly that the employees are happy to move/live in the nominated location.

.CASA has made it abundantly clear that they want RA-Aus and other SASAOs to continue. No doubt they would like to see a better standard of Administration and Governance than has been demonstrated in the last 5 years and they are insisting that they get that. We have to work on the basis that RA-Aus is here to stay and continue to lift our professionalism.

Currently, I understand that the Ops Manager works mostly from Temora and the Tech Manager similarly from Melbourne and to some extent would not be overly affected by RA-Aus moving out of Canberra. It is highly likely that some Staff would either not be in a position to make the move from Canberra or simply don't want to. The transition plan would need to address that issue. We may lose some staff and have to hire more in the new location. That is not the end of the world either for the Staff or RA-Aus. It is important though that the place RA-Aus relocates to offers opportunities for spouses/partners and children of staff to be able to obtain employment and/or appropriate education opportunities.

 

. . . Naromine might be a good place to visit for a few days but how many Raaus employees and their families would enjoy living there fulltime?

Narromine is a half hour drive from Dubbo a city of more than 30,000 people. Temora, a town of 4,000, on the other hand, is perhaps a lot more limited in these matters.

 

. . . And just to add another option why not think about just buying a property outside of a decent sized town and setting up a RAA airfield? Wouldn't take much to organise a little bus to shuttle to the major airfield 10 or 20 k's away and be on our own ul friendly strip.

RA-Aus must NEVER purchase and operate an airport. That would be an enormous distraction from our core accountabilities and a bottomless pit for Members' Funds.

 

How could we ever afford to match the airport facilities of even a modest Council owned airport let alone a Temora or a Narromine?

 

 

[coljones]

RAA has $2,276,662.92 in net Assets - which includes an appreciating asset, a building with a value of just over $900,000

 

It has current assets of $1,376,426.91 mainly cash of which there is $1,127,638.41 in a Term deposit.

 

The current board doesn't seem to have a clue as to why we have $1.3 million in the bank.

 

If I were from WA or NT or Tas I would be very worried about any move in this direction.

 

Nobody has presented a good economic or administrative reason for moving to an airport particularly one not close to RPT or public transport nor articulated a plan of what RAA would do when it got there.

 

Until I get a clear reason for the big bucket of cash sloshing around I would be very worried about letting the board make any sort of decision.

 

maybe when, if, the vote comes up the members vote should be inversely proportional to the members distance from the proposed HO - since they are the ones being impacted by the tyranny of distance and the relative inability to "just pop in" when the mood suits them.

 

Don, your post should have begged the question - why should we relocate?

 

 

[nong]

Regional airports may have airline access...but it is meaningless unless there is some competition to keep the prices down...Rex etc doesn't count as viable airline transport.I am guessing Mackay is too far north BUT.. it has good access with completion from major airline nation wide...

This property would be perfect and already has an airstrip...and perfect flying weather...buy it outright for $1 million and make an income leasing the farm...

 

http://m.domain.com.au/listing/2010812300

REX is a bloody good airline mate. Certainly as "good" as any othe, and, it turns a profit ! Rex services Wagga very well and battles QANTAS toe to toe.

 

 

[Nick Evison]

I wouldn't call Nowra central.

10hrs from melbourne, 2hrs from canberra, 2hrs from sydney, 12hrs from brisbane.

 

maybe goulburn is a better option.

 

Just make sure its regional

 

 

[Oscar]

It's fairly obvious that there are competing elements in any possible selection of a different site for a 'home' for RAA (cost, location, transport options, accommodation options etc.) and there is absolutely no possibility that all of them can be equitably met - one or more will have to be sacrificed.

 

However, all of this really does beg the question of whether RAA operation needs a centralised 'home' at all. With modern IT-supported communications and the development of appropriate on-line administrative systems, the need for a single physical facility should be greatly reduced. In fact, I would suggest that even in the current situation, the single location in Canberra might as well be, for most members, located anywhere else - how many members regularly visit RAA HQ to have things sorted out?

 

Over 10 years ago I was part of the management of a small company that did web-based business system development; we had a small office in the North Shore IT-centric area with a meeting space for clients, two offices, a server room and a general work area for normally around three-four staff doing design, coding, documentation. Our chief programmer worked exclusively from his home near Mangrove Mountain via satellite link; we had a web designer working from Copenhagen and another from New York, a content-developer working from London and another from Wagga Wagga. We'd bring in specialists for different projects almost always via telecoms links, often with little more than a few face-to-face meetings over the life of a project. It all worked very effectively; we provided a help-desk facility via mobile phone (and that was sometimes personally intrusive, I admit - having to ask a client to hold on for a minute while we completed the start manoeuvering of our twilight yacht-race happened on several occasions..)

 

I'd be surprised if the economics of having say three Board meetings a year held in alternate locations and using purely commercial facilities (meeting area, accommodation) and transport options for Board Members at which general members could have face-to-face meetings would work out to be anything like the cost of establishing and running a single centre anywhere. Let's say, these to be held at somewhere like Mildura, Canberra, and Hervey Bay - all places served by RPT, with good accommodation provided one picks their 'off season' times. Yes, this is undeniably East-Coast centric but probably affords the best exposure to the greatest amount of RAA population; perhaps the CEO, Tech Manager and Ops Manager could do a 'roadshow' to W.A and Tassie at least once a year if the demand is there.

 

Natfly for the AGM and a general members chance to be a bit social, and maybe the set-up of a 'conference-call' session for members at regional fly-ins with the CEO, Tech. Manager and Ops. Manager on call, with that session 'chaired' by the local RAA Rep. - and the RAA keeps a small set of suitable gear (camera etc.) to facilitate the regional end of the link?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Griffith to:

 

Adelaide. 376 NM

 

Melbourne. 216 NM

 

Sydney. 246 NM

 

Brisbane. 537 NM

 

http://www.griffith.nsw.gov.au/cp_themes/lifestyle/page.asp?p=DOC-MRV-43-27-08

 

I have no conflict of interest or particular interest in Griffith...I have been there just twice and flew both occasions...and was impressed. The airport is a few clicks out of town, so no noise issues. Council separated GA and RPT when I was there. The town is roughly the same size as Dubbo, clean and blessed with good infrastructure. House prices are reasonable, schools are good, and a good choice of accommodation.

 

I tried to book a motel or cabin in Temora a few days ago for the end of March AAAA flyin and nothing...only a few pub rooms upstairs no ensuite no thanks.

 

The Auster flyin is at Luskintyre a month later and I have to negotiate that bloody Great Divide to get there just when Autumn fogs are at their best. I have to pay for accommodation in advance but there's a fair chance I won't be able to get there. It's a bit off-putting to plan a 12hour round trip without knowing you will be able to make it across that last barrier.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kgwilson]

However, all of this really does beg the question of whether RAA operation needs a centralised 'home' at all. With modern IT-supported communications and the development of appropriate on-line administrative systems, the need for a single physical facility should be greatly reduced. In fact, I would suggest that even in the current situation, the single location in Canberra might as well be, for most members, located anywhere else - how many members regularly visit RAA HQ to have things sorted out?

When I was President of the NZHGA we had an AGM & all other committee meetings etc were held by conference call. It worked. We had initial face to face meetings with CAA & the rest were by phone. No email or video conferencing in those days. Our draft Ops manual was presented by snail mail. What happened. Well we got a new CAO giving us the HG mandate, our ceiling lifted from 300 feet to 9,500 feet among other things. This was 1979. If this could be done over 30 years ago then with the huge advances in technologies since there should not be any reason why RA-Aus HQ could not be anywhere at all.

 

Natfly for the AGM and a general members chance to be a bit social, and maybe the set-up of a 'conference-call' session for members at regional fly-ins with the CEO, Tech. Manager and Ops. Manager on call, with that session 'chaired' by the local RAA Rep. - and the RAA keeps a small set of suitable gear (camera etc.) to facilitate the regional end of the link?

Agree 100%.

[rhysmcc]

It really needs to be in the catchment of a capital city, would be alot easier to attract top range managers if we could offer a capital city location as opposed to regional nsw or vic. Within easy drive of Brisbane make sense, easy RPT access, CASA HQ and some decent airfields to choose from.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . The current board doesn't seem to have a clue as to why we have $1.3 million in the bank.

This would be funny if it weren't so serious. You may recall that when I campaigned to be elected to the Board in 2011, it was because we were hearing rumours that RA-Aus was in serious financial difficulties. The Treasurer had been sacked by the Board because there had been no budget done for 20 months and no useful financial reporting. Steve Runciman took over as Treasurer and immediately raised membership fees as a precaution in case we were going broke until he could get a grip on the true financial situation.

 

You can imagine my surprise when six months later I got elected to the Board and then as Treasurer to find there was a very substantial sum tucked away in the vaults. When I asked the question "why", most of the Board looked surprised to hear that RA-Aus was not in immediate danger. The answer I got from one long serving Board Member was something to the effect that we had been putting money aside to buy an office building. But, by that time we already owned (outright) the building in Fyshwick. Next response was that we might want to buy our own aerodrome one day. At that stage I nearly fell off my chair in shock and horror at such a mad idea. Current thinking is probably along the lines of having a fighting fund to ward off litigation.

 

. . . Nobody has presented a good economic or administrative reason for moving to an airport particularly one not close to RPT or public transport nor articulated a plan of what RAA would do when it got there.

Col, you won't get any opposition to the idea that we should know why we would move out of Canberra. That is the first step before working out where we might prefer to be and then how the hell we manage the transition. If you add up the Board numbers, we have three that are Canberra (or thereabouts) residents. We have WA, NT, Tas and NQ who have zero chance of RA-Aus moving to their region. That in itself is a Board majority.

 

Until I get a clear reason for the big bucket of cash sloshing around I would be very worried about letting the board make any sort of decision.

I believe this is a decision for the people we elect to make such decisions. It is up to the General Manager to come up with a compelling cost/benefits case to make the move an economically viable capital expenditure project.

 

I can think of plenty of good reasons to not choose Canberra as the permanent home base for RA-Aus. I think you might agree that if you were about to set up a Recreational Aviation body in Australia that Canberra would come close to the bottom of any list of preferred locations. But that decision was taken long ago for reasons that may have been quite valid at the time. However, now we have the opportunity to consider where the best permanent home might be and whether the expense and disruption would be justified by the result.

 

 

[Oscar]

I believe this is a decision for the people we elect to make such decisions. It is up to the General Manager to come up with a compelling cost/benefits case to make the move an economically viable capital expenditure project.

I can think of plenty of good reasons to not choose Canberra as the permanent home base for RA-Aus. I think you might agree that if you were about to set up a Recreational Aviation body in Australia that Canberra would come close to the bottom of any list of preferred locations. But that decision was taken long ago for reasons that may have been quite valid at the time. However, now we have the opportunity to consider where the best permanent home might be and whether the expense and disruption would be justified by the result.

I would certainly agree that there are few if any reasons why Canberra should be the chosen site for any significant RAA HQ presence, and as a member within realistic commuting distance of Canberra (and indeed I visit Canberra probably six -eight times in an average year just for family reasons), I have only ever bothered to even visit RAA HQ on two occasions - and one of those was to drop off a condition report because I was happening to pass by the office and it was as easy to drop it off as post it. About the only justification I could see for remaining in Canberra would be to be close to the legislators if we were a highly-active lobby group, and we certainly are NOT that. In terms of doing the F-t-F stuff with CASA - Brisbane makes far better sense.

 

However, surely any discussion about re-location has the cart well and truly ahead of the horse until the necessity for and the actual role and functions of any 'HQ' facility are determined. RAA appears to me to already be operating as a distributed entity, with the Tech Manager as I understand it in Adelaide and the Ops Manager in Temora? I had no trouble in communicating with the Tech Manager recently; I used this wonderful modern device, a telephone! They are amazing little things, you can hold them in your hand and talk and listen to someone who is hundreds of kilometers away just as if he or she were there in the room with you (which might not happen if you dropped in to HQ on spec. and found they were out to lunch, in a meeting elsewhere, off sick for the day etc.) .

 

Let us imagine that we located, by statistical analysis, the exact geographical epicentre of every single member of RAA and created a terrific little airport there complete with an Admin. building housing every staff member of RAA. What percentage of RAA members would fly in to conduct their business with RAA over the desk / in the office? In a day, a week, a year?

 

I suggest that the main reason for having an office HQ presence at all, is the fact that RAA systems are so overwhelmingly paper-based that a co-located staff facility typical of the 'office' of the 1970/80's is a physical necessity so the paper-shuffling can be handled and managed effectively. With decent web-based business systems physical proximity of people undertaking different administrative tasks is completely unnecessary.

 

To illustrate: I live near Mittagong, NSW. My local Council office building is at Moss Vale, 20 minutes drive away. My rates bills are prepared and sent by a commercial service located in Adelaide..

 

If it is really considered necessary from a symbolic rather than a realistic need for RAA members to have the feeling that they can get to fly their aircraft to somewhere and sit down and chew the issues with RAA senior management, then perhaps a small office at Gatton Airpark would provide a location sufficiently close to Brisbane for the GM to conduct the F-t-F stuff with CASA and still be 'fly-in' accessible to members. However, I for one would far rather see my membership $$ going towards the development of effective web-based business systems than to bricks-and-mortar investment in a facility at all, beyond a basic simple office area that provides space at reasonable cost in a location with decent 'net access and good-quality support infrastructure (power, telecoms facilities etc.) so that RAA can have a high-grade server facility and a permanent address for contact purposes.

 

 

[kgwilson]

However, I for one would far rather see my membership $$ going towards the development of effective web-based business systems than to bricks-and-mortar investment in a facility at all, beyond a basic simple office area that provides space at reasonable cost in a location with decent 'net access and good-quality support infrastructure (power, telecoms facilities etc.) so that RAA can have a high-grade server facility and a permanent address for contact purposes.

Does anyone know where RA-Aus is with it's modernisation program, getting a holistic database, hopefully RDBMS set up so every bit of data relating to pilots and aircraft can be linked automatically?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

As I understand it there is no overarching RAAus strategy, so no IT strategy, and therefore the expected progress.....

 

Until someone can clearly articulate what finished looks like, and all stakeholders sign up to that then setting sail on a transformational journey is going to cost heaps and deliver little

 

PM 101 basics

 

Andy