Relocating the office...where to?

[Oscar]

Narromine is an equitable distance to travel for the membership living along the northern and southern extremities of the east-coast, whether from Melbourne or Rocky.BUT, the summers get very hot and bumpy (great gliding), there is no RPT, the population is just 3,500 and facilities for families are very limited.

Well, (and I know very well hot hot it gets in summer at Narromine, used to glide there myself), that means the peak summer time is the time for the GFA and HGFA guys to use the facilities - they're used to it. Spreads the load on the facilities more evenly across the year..

 

But we're still not getting to the nub of the WHY argument, people: we're still stuck in the WHERE..

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Getting the RAA out of Canberra and into premises preferably on an airfield with suitable infrastructure to be able to not only provide 21st century admin but also providing a well trained instru tors and maintenance personal. Room to grow expand and build on. Can't do that in Canberra. It is a shame that the RAA and SAAA can't join forces and work together it will avoid duplicating everything. (Gasp horror i think Eugene and Middo just had a fit).

 

BTW THE APF moved from Canberra for two reasons. First to have better comunication with CASA. And that has been a huge success.

 

and second for a better lifestyle for staff and proximity to members.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Getting the RAA out of Canberra and into premises preferably on an airfield with suitable infrastructure to be able to not only provide 21st century admin but also providing a well trained instru tors and maintenance personal. Room to grow expand and build on. Can't do that in Canberra. It is a shame that the RAA and SAAA can't join forces and work together it will avoid duplicating everything. (Gasp horror i think Eugene and Middo just had a fit).".............

Yes Ozzie!

 

A decent hangar with established workshop in which to run home builder classes and to train others who are approved to maintain RA aircraft.

 

A large meeting area able to accommodate a couple of hundred members who might turn up for AGMs and GMs if we had somewhere to be proud of and to provide a focus for our activities. Rooms for instructor training as well and for CFI re certification too, perhaps?

 

Somewhere to set down our roots and develop the infrastructure needed to properly service member requirements such as certificates and registrations. Somewhere with adequate, reasonably priced accommodation for students and other visitors.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... and the SAAA people don't have two heads.

 

Mixing with people who fly other types of machines is usually quite instructive. Hell, I sometimes even talk to gyro drivers!

 

 

[rankamateur]

Brisbane is roughly half way between Melbourne and Cairns, CASA is in Brisbane. The majority if RAA members live in SE Qld or in NSW. It is a no brainer to relocate near Brisbane.

It is hard to think like that when you are from Melbourne, when Canberra and Temora have been so close by all along.

 

 

[coljones]

Cudal, the old Hazelton base, just outside Orange, is halfway between the between Melbourne, the node of just under 3000 members, and Brisbane, the node of just under 3000 members in SEQueensland and close to the, just under 3000, members in NSW

 

 

[kaz3g]

It is hard to think like that when you are from Melbourne, when Canberra and Temora have been so close by all along.

It would be interesting to obtain a better breakdown of the distribution of our members than is provided in the magazine. Perhaps Jim might make some inquiries for us and provide current membership numbers for each State in the meantime?

 

As I tried to make clear in a previous post, the map in the magazine seems to make a latitude around Sydney about the mid-point of distribution along the east coast. Victoria seems to have a particularly high density more evenly spread across the whole State than anywhere else. Sadly, nothing considered here seems likely to be more accessible for those who live in SA, WA, NT or Tas. The tyranny of distance will always be with them.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The Ulysses people are a bit like us. Their AGM is a moving feast, so that they can do what they love to do: travel.

 

Perhaps RAAus could set up HQ at a regional centre then go on the road with courses, conferences etc. That way many far-flung clubs could get a boost from hosting a gathering.

 

 

[Powerin]

Is where the members live all that important? How many members have any need to visit RAAus?

 

Having said that, there was mention previously of the symbolic. There is something to be said for having an organisation based in its heartland, a place that members can identify with and can call a home, even if it costs more money. Having RAAus based in an industrial suburb in Canberra is something akin to having Surfing Australia based in Griffith. Even if it makes operational sense to have RAAus in Canberra, perhaps there are less tangible but more important advantages (even if they are perceived ones) in having it based in a more recreational aviation friendly place. If it is important, from memory Caboolture Qld has the biggest concentration of members, followed (surprisingly to me) by Wagga Wagga NSW.

 

With a board that only meets face to face twice a year they wouldn't even need to meet at HQ. They could hold meetings at any number of hotels in any major city with meeting facilities and accommodation on site. Even better I would wager any number of flying clubs around Australia would be happy to organise and host the occasional board meeting.

 

Finally, just a gentle reminder to those that think a shift to a regional area is fraught with staffing difficulties.... nearly 7 million of us live outside capital and major cities in Australia. Despite the terrible disadvantages of this we still manage to find housing, jobs and staff with expertise to run our businesses and even keep ourselves fed and entertained. At the same time we also manage to produce 67% of Australia's exports. So perhaps a small organisation like the RAAus could also be run successfully in a regional area.

 

 

[Powerin]

Canberra median property price = $588,000

 

Caboolture median property price = $300,000

 

Wagga Wagga median property price = $330,000

 

Griffith median property price = $255,000

 

(housing)

 

 

[jetjr]

Canberra median property price = $588,000Caboolture median property price = $300,000

Wagga Wagga median property price = $330,000

 

Griffith median property price = $255,000

 

(housing)

And griffith is expensive compared to other centres like Dubbo

 

 

[Keith Page]

Fellas, I don't want to throw a spanner in the works but if you drove/fly from Melbourne to Cairns using the inland HWY/IFR-I follow road. Charleville is smack bang half way. So geographically speaking Charleville has to be considered .

Good Morning Dazza 38

 

Interesting concept, brings back a trivia question, "Which is the most western town Charleville or Cairns?"

 

The other point --- most people on this forum are trying to come up with a location which is equidistant for the masses to get to. How many of this gang would go to the flyin?

 

Bit like those people who live by the beach, How many go to the water? Those who go to the beach most have to travel.

 

Why not have an event which has less travel for the ones who have to fly for miles and miles?

 

Those banging on I would like to know how many would attend when all is under their nose.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page

 

 

[Oscar]

We seem to be well and truly stuck on debating where a facility should be - but nobody seems keen on tackling the basic question of whether we should be spending the member's $$ on such a facility.

 

Ok, let me try another tack on the issue to see if I can get some traction here. Let's start by breaking it down to some very simple questions.

 

Of your $200+ of annual membership fees, what % would you like to see spent:

 

a) on the development of a fast, efficient, easy-to-use online self-reporting system for re-registration?

 

b) on the maintenance of a bulk Public Risk insurance scheme that provides members with a proper and sensible amount of coverage as a key RAA function?

 

c) on having a permanent, fly-in HQ set-up?

 

d) on suitable arrangements ( e.g. for a start, subsidised teleconferencing capability for all Board Members and the Executive) that would improve the level of communication efficiently so that Board Members can spend more time on actual deliberations etc. and less on unproductive travel time and costs?

 

e) on PR activities including the Magazine?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I want it all....but in order of priority I want:-

 

d) this is business as usual...if its not being done then spend the minimal hours needed and make it so.

 

a) but not just a front end client facing solution I want a full end to end solution that solves employees problems as well as members problems.

 

b) Insurance, I believe this one is in progress at the moment, stand by to see where we get to.....

 

e) yep this is important for the future cause members seem to keep dieing off of old age or a momentry lapse in the cockpit..... I personally would wish that the magazine was available in PDF format on the members page. Not because I like to read magazines on a computer screen, generally I avoid it if I can (ipad excepted)...but because it takes so long to get to me each month.......If I could reduce my yearly cost by converting to PDF only then Im in!

 

c) much lower priority for me

 

Andy

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hello Keith,

 

I live about 5 kays from the beach and go nearly every day when I am at home. But as

 

Good Morning Dazza 38Interesting concept, brings back a trivia question, "Which is the most western town Charleville or Cairns?"

 

The other point --- most people on this forum are trying to come up with a location which is equidistant for the masses to get to. How many of this gang would go to the flyin?

 

Bit like those people who live by the beach, How many go to the water? Those who go to the beach most have to travel.

 

Why not have an event which has less travel for the ones who have to fly for miles and miles?

 

Those banging on I would like to know how many would attend when all is under their nose.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page

Hello Keith,

He is my answers

 

Cairns is further west than Charleville.

 

I realise that most people are trying to come up with a location equidistant to the masses. Err I don't care, each to their own . We have pilots on the east coast of Australia from the tip of QLD to the bottom of VIC ( with a few in Tasmania) . Things have probably changed over the last couple of years with members leaving the RAA. But last time I check, QLD and NSW had the most members, nearly equal in numbers and both states had by far more than any other state. The way I see it, a member flying down from cairns to SEQ has a trip nearly just as long as someone flying up from Melbourne to SEQ. Joints like Griffith and Temora mentioned, that is way to far south in my opinion for us here in QLD.

 

I would also be a good idea to be up here since most of CASA is in Brisbane these days.

 

As for the beach, I live 5 kays from the beach when I am at home and go there nearly everyday. As for who would attend if the joint was right under our nose, I cant really answer that, but I am only in the RAA because I have to be, which I think is BS but that is another subject all together.

 

 

[johnm]

Hello Keith,

 

He is my answers

 

Cairns is further west than Charlevillew

 

.......................... I'm gunna establich the veracity of that statement Daz - using a map of oz

 

 

[kaz3g]

Good Morning Dazza 38..........Why not have an event which has less travel for the ones who have to fly for miles and miles?

 

Those banging on I would like to know how many would attend when all is under their nose.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page

Probably puts HQ in Eucla, Keith.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kgwilson]

We seem to be well and truly stuck on debating where a facility should be - but nobody seems keen on tackling the basic question of whether we should be spending the member's $$ on such a facility.Ok, let me try another tack on the issue to see if I can get some traction here. Let's start by breaking it down to some very simple questions.

 

Of your $200+ of annual membership fees, what % would you like to see spent:

 

a) on the development of a fast, efficient, easy-to-use online self-reporting system for re-registration?

 

b) on the maintenance of a bulk Public Risk insurance scheme that provides members with a proper and sensible amount of coverage as a key RAA function?

 

c) on having a permanent, fly-in HQ set-up?

 

d) on suitable arrangements ( e.g. for a start, subsidised teleconferencing capability for all Board Members and the Executive) that would improve the level of communication efficiently so that Board Members can spend more time on actual deliberations etc. and less on unproductive travel time and costs?

 

e) on PR activities including the Magazine?

The most important thing IMHO is a strategy & process to achieve:-

 

a) but it needs to be a complete enterprise system covering everything including members, aircraft, employees, safety, Ops etc & the relationships between all. Reporting and all sorts of analysis is then just a by-product.

 

d) is priority 2 & should already be happening anyway.

 

e) happening now

 

b) happening now.

 

c) Not a priority

 

 

[Oscar]

Kg and Andy:

 

I see we are singing from the same hymm sheet! Absolutely, RAA needs a comprehensive business process management system that integrates all of its major administrative activities so that any changes to information that are either received from, or need to be passed out to, members is properly linked within a RDBMS and this endless paper-shuffling routine comes to an end.

 

The development of a proper system will require both the analysis and design of the RDBMS itself plus the integration of business process rules so that the actual process (e.g. Registration) that is supported by the RDBMS is also completely auditable - in other words, not just replacing bits of paper with screens of information but USING that information plus the data to automate the processing activities.

 

I personally put my expenditure priorities from my list above at around:

 

a) 50%

 

b) 30%

 

d) 5% - (it should in reality be a peanuts cost anyway)

 

e) 10%

 

thus leaving a meagre 5% for c).

 

That will seem a very mean amount to consider for a permanent home airfield consideration (less than $100k from overall membership fees in any one year) - BUT: once a) is achieved that should free up a whole lot of membership fees in the future to re-visit the home airfield idea.

 

In simple terms: I think we need to get the ESSENTIALS done, and done well, before we start to think seriously about anything else. A home airfield is not necessarily off the agenda for ever - but it just should not be a current priority.

 

 

[dazza 38]

How much is our existing building that we own in canberra worth roughly ?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Kg and Andy:I see we are singing from the same hymm sheet! Absolutely, RAA needs a comprehensive business process management system that integrates all of its major administrative activities so that any changes to information that are either received from, or need to be passed out to, members is properly linked within a RDBMS and this endless paper-shuffling routine comes to an end.

 

The development of a proper system will require both the analysis and design of the RDBMS itself plus the integration of business process rules so that the actual process (e.g. Registration) that is supported by the RDBMS is also completely audit able - in other words, not just replacing bits of paper with screens of information but USING that information plus the data to automate the processing activities....

Does anyone know if work on such a system is taking place? Is there a project committee put together to investigate the requirements, analysis and design of such a system which then can be put to tender? I'm sure from 9000 odd members a few must have the skills to assist in such a major development for our orginisiation (and I'm not talking about the actual design/coding, but decide what the system needs to do so it can be tendered out).

 

 

[nickduncs84]

I have to admit, after reading all the comments on RA Aus on this site, I'm rather surprised to find out that there is a spare $2m sitting on the balance sheet. Like others on this thread, I'm even more surprised that they (and we) are even having this conversation. Imagine if the Federal government had a spare 50 billion in the budget and decided it would be a good idea to spend the money to build a 300 story skyscraper in Canberra that every Australian citizen could visit.

 

Seriously, when I look at RA Aus, I see so much opportunity, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the issue of moving HQ, where to move it, whether to move it blah blah blah will have no impact on how much of this opportunity is realised.

 

So there is an issue with registration. How about we work out what is needed, pay someone 50k and boom problem solved! I've got 10 people in this office who could probably design and build what you need in 3-4 months.

 

Anyway I won't dribble on but my point is RA Aus has a lot of problems, a lot of opportunity and $2m is a lot of money..........It doesn't matter WHERE HQ is, it matters WHO we have in the building....or am I missing something??

 

Nick

 

 

[Oscar]

Nick - well said, but I'd add a caveat to your last point: it isn't where, it is WHO - and it matters a lot WHAT they are doing!

 

For example: we need a Tech Manager who is across all of the relevant regs, AND we need that person to be spending most of their time sorting the problem areas, doing things that matter directly to safety etc. - not spending 90% of their time looking at bits of paper to check that routine re-registrations have every applicable box ticked, for instance. That's what a good business process management system will achieve - it will receive information, check that the details are in accordance with the 'rules' that apply, and throw up anomalies that actually need to be looked at. It will automate the sending out of information to the necessary recipients and check any acknowledgement / proof of action to comply that is required. It will compile necessary statistics and present them in a needed form etc.

 

It is wildly inefficient and a waste of resources to have someone with the technical expertise we need for a Tech Manager, or an Ops. Manager, to be doing fundamentally clerical tasks. Those can be handled - and handled auditably - by a properly-designed automated system. Get that bit sorted and the organisation has far more opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities you suggest are there.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

OK Oscar, I'll have a go at the more difficult, less fun, question of "Why".

 

We need to think about two different time zones. One goes back decades and the other goes forward a decade or two.

 

We go back and have a look at the reasons RA-Aus HQ ended up in Canberra. It has been put to me by the people who were around then - thus just hearsay but I've got nothing better to go on or any reason to think they were being less than frank - that Canberra was chosen because there was a lot of lobbying going on with Federal Politicians and CASA all of which were based in Canberra. There may have been other reasons and perhaps some of the genuine veterans can enlighten us on that.

 

Lets wander forwards ten or 20 years and consider would we be better off then if we'd stayed in Canberra or set up a less expensive but more functional RA-Aus base in a more suitable location?

 

The cost and potential short term disruption of any relocation will not be insignificant when it happens but the cost will be amortised over many, many years and the disruption simply a thing of the past.

 

If we look at the big picture, having RA-Aus situated at the optimum location based on some carefully weighted criteria is the smart thing to do. It is a project that is not too time critical in the sense that is wasn't essential yesterday. But we don't want to just drift on with a high cost, low relevance location like Canberra. If this question had come up to look at early in 2013 when RA-Aus was in uproar and general disarray, it would very smartly (and wisely) been pushed aside.

 

We should congratulate Mark Clayton, RA-Aus GM, for having raised the question of where is the right place for RA-Aus to be housed - in/for the long term. Mark even suggested some useful criteria. Could you imagine his predecessor coming up with that sort of strategic, big picture, forward-looking thinking?

 

Kaz kicked off this thread intent on getting some thoughts on the table as to how you would judge where the optimum location is and some suggestions from our widely geographically-spread RecFlying contributors as to where they feel would be a good location. I think it is achieving all that with close to 100 posts on the subject already.

 

I think it is too easy to say there are other matters higher on the priority list. It just means we have more to get done - in parallel. We have vast resources of people amongst our 10,000 pilots and we are not so destitute that we can't afford to do it at any cost.

 

It is not unreasonable to me, to wonder if we were setting up an organisation like RA-Aus for the first time, where would be the best place for it to be based? Or in the correct order, what are the criteria by which we would choose where is the best place for RA-Aus to be located. Remaining in Canberra would be one of those options. It may have been the right place decades ago but that does not make it the right place now and definitely does not make it the right place to be 10 years from now.

 

I strongly favour the idea of a sub-committee reporting to Mark Clayton to come up with a definitive list of criteria with appropriate weightings. For example, access to high speed internet is probably more important than how close the nearest pub is. Being a good location for NATFLY is probably more important than access to RPT within 50 kms.

 

Once Mark has a clear favourite (or at least a short, shortlist) then he can get some work done on how a transition would be made and what that would cost and how disruption can be minimised.

 

Armed with all that Mark can then have the Cost/Benefits analysis done and you can even get into discounted cash flows, Net Present Values and what ever else you'd like to test the concept with. Then he can go to the Board with a thoroughly thought through, costed proposal for the Board to make the final decision.

 

But, if the project is never, never run, we'll never, never know and be stuck in Canberra forever. So, on this forum, lets just enjoy kicking some ideas around, fre-form, rather than dismiss the concept because RA-Aus has a few other trifling, short term issues .

 

 

[dazza 38]

I first joined the AUF in 1987 and how and why we ended up in Canberra as Don had explained in above is how I remember reading about it.