Camit engines - anyone got one?

[facthunter]

And it may just be the case that Rod will pull this off. There's no doubt the relationship was bad.. Probably stressed by the increasing "problems " starting around the leaning out and camshaft and hydraulic lifters. "One ship, One captain" might be the situation but with people having a heavy investment commitment to protect, I can see differences of opinion becoming critical. I feel most sorry for the organisations that got a good run from their engines. The engines were critical. Easily overheated in some situations. A lot of individual fiddling going on. Going to mogas may have made it more precarious. People thought the engine should run 2,000 hours without a "top" etc . Rod never claimed that and advised to keep the valves and rings sealing . Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

Jabiru started looking at new supplier of parts and development 4 years ago so it was always Jabiru's plan to give CAMit the flick

Absolutely correct, and Ian Bent knew that. However, I think Jabiru has made a grave error of long-term judgement in the way in which it has handled its relationship with CAMit; there are many customers with Jab. engines who will NOT be pleased at being forced to buy the new engine prematurely because the parts supply has dried up. It won't be as simple as dropping the new engine in; installations will have to be modified and 're-tuned' for satisfactory cooling and intake changes.

 

Sue Woods's comment that they will just find new suppliers is ingenuous - at best. Suppliers will have to meet not only the cost of development of the CNC programming for new parts, but also obtaining inventory of raw material stock in small quantities and the implementation of specific QA systems to meet the standards. All things that CAMit had amortised over thousands of engines and in no small part had contributed to the 'Joint Venture' nature of the original relationship between the two companies.

 

I have the terrible feeling that Jabiru is betting the farm on the new engine. There are quite a few people fairly close to the action, who would know that that is at best - on history of its development - not a bet that prudence would endorse.

 

 

[coljones]

Absolutely correct, and Ian Bent knew that. However, I think Jabiru has made a grave error of long-term judgement in the way in which it has handled its relationship with CAMit; there are many customers with Jab. engines who will NOT be pleased at being forced to buy the new engine prematurely because the parts supply has dried up. It won't be as simple as dropping the new engine in; installations will have to be modified and 're-tuned' for satisfactory cooling and intake changes.Sue Woods's comment that they will just find new suppliers is ingenuous - at best. Suppliers will have to meet not only the cost of development of the CNC programming for new parts, but also obtaining inventory of raw material stock in small quantities and the implementation of specific QA systems to meet the standards. All things that CAMit had amortised over thousands of engines and in no small part had contributed to the 'Joint Venture' nature of the original relationship between the two companies.

 

I have the terrible feeling that Jabiru is betting the farm on the new engine. There are quite a few people fairly close to the action, who would know that that is at best - on history of its development - not a bet that prudence would endorse.

Jabiru could step in and buy it for a bargain price. The receivers would get more for it as a going concern with local trained and qualified workers than as selling it off for scrap value - there will be lots of scrap now that Ford, GM and ASC were put on the block by the gummint.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is no way that parts will be produced in the future for the same price, or anything like it as was the case up till now for the CAMit line of doing things. You would be pushing to get the same thoroughness also people will have to get REAL about what to do about this to limit the damage. The ability for the present crew and equipment to carry on may well dissipate quickly. They can't live on thin air. Liquidators have to be very careful about trading out of a situation. For what was on offer I would imagine Ian Bent would have given it his best shots. We will all make our minds up but CASA put the nail in the coffin. No sales no cash flow. CASA started a crude process which they didn't think through. IF CAMit going broke was OK then they have got it. It could be easily predicted that would happen. Uncertainty kills businesses. Nev

 

 

[coljones]

There is no way that parts will be produced in the future for the same price, or anything like it as was the case up till now for the CAMit line of doing things. You would be pushing to get the same thoroughness also people will have to get REAL about what to do about this to limit the damage. The ability for the present crew and equipment to carry on may well dissipate quickly. They can't live on thin air. Liquidators have to be very careful about trading out of a situation. For what was on offer I would imagine Ian Bent would have given it his best shots. We will all make our minds up but CASA put the nail in the coffin. No sales no cash flow. CASA started a crude process which they didn't think through. IF CAMit going broke was OK then they have got it. It could be easily predicted that would happen. Uncertainty kills businesses. Nev

But the liquidator might accept 1¢ in the $ because that is the best offer. I don't know about Vic but it seems that this is the way private railways and tollways get traded in NSW. I'm sure a few gold mines have been bought by the directors in the same way. As a going concern the creditors, but not the shareholders, might get some scraps to fight over.

 

 

[facthunter]

Transactions must be (and seen to be ) at arm's length. CNC machines usually go for a maximum of 50% of new costs. Better ones get produced all the time. Special jigs etc only apply to making current products. Have no real value outside of that. The point is making what Ian made needs an instant market. How's it going to happen? The receivership further clouds the chance of viability and any deal with CASA (if you could ever work out what they wanted) recedes further from a possibility.

 

Taking a very optimistic view. Buy it very cheap and try from a new lower overhead situation. Find a benefactor who believes in the concept, with stacks of capital. You would need the current staff, probably including Ian but I don't know enough to really comment on that. All eggs are in one basket there I would think as far as products. The banks probably foreclosed. They don't care much about anything but the money. Ian may have lost everything too so that might be part of our thoughts. None of these people are in any way criminals. Nev

 

 

[ave8rr]

Employees are having to claim their entitlements through the Fed Gov system as per the Qld Nickle (Palmer) employees fiasco in Townsville. Forms handed out to the 22 Camit employees by the Accountants as I am informed. comment was also made that some of the plant equip was getting tired!

 

 

[Spooks]

Sad to hear :(

 

I hope the guys at CAMit are able to transfer their skills elsewhere. I know that guys in the UK who lose jobs in engineering, toolmaking, manufacturing etc are generally having to retrain for completely new careers :(

 

 

[fritterburner]

A couple on the Yahoo Jab/CAMit group report to have sent Ian some short emails wishing him all the best, and mentioned that he took the time to reply to them.

 

Other than these replies of a personal nature, I imagine the silence has been due to him being unable to comment on things since he is no longer running the show - it is perhaps now up to the receivers/administrators to make public comment as a few have already said.

 

His email address at CAMit will soon no longer be active. By all reports, both he and Jenny need a long rest - they've spent decades on such a venture and it's going to be a massive adjustment for them.

 

Some of the plant equipment may be tired, yes - one or two machines having made parts for very early Jabiru engines and still in operation - but other machines were years ahead of them. For example - when I once got a tour around, got shown a 13-axis lathe which the camshafts were produced on. In went a bar of material, and out came a completed camshaft, short of being hardened and ground.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

As soon as Camit started producing and selling their "own" engines it was bound to end in tears. Imagine if you were a manufacturer and your main supplier started selling a version of "your" product? You would look to cut them off ASAP. Even if it does spite your face for a bit..T'was inevitable in my opinion .

 

 

[ave8rr]

As soon as Camit started producing and selling their "own" engines it was bound to end in tears. Imagine if you were a manufacturer and your main supplier started selling a version of "your" product? You would look to cut them off ASAP. Even if it does spite your face for a bit..T'was inevitable in my opinion .

Dont agree. Ask Jab why they started developing their own engine giving less and less orders to Camit - their engine supplier for many years. Camit had to try and stay in buisness.

 

 

[Aldo]

As soon as Camit started producing and selling their "own" engines it was bound to end in tears. Imagine if you were a manufacturer and your main supplier started selling a version of "your" product? You would look to cut them off ASAP. Even if it does spite your face for a bit..T'was inevitable in my opinion .

Geoff

 

Only if you're dumb enough to think your product is better than the other (which by all accounts it isn't). I'm in manufacturing and I listen intently to my suppliers and the customer as they are the one's building and using my product they can make you or break you, don't listen at your own peril.

 

I've always been a Jabiru supporter (own one) but Rod's and Sue's position in this instance will see me no longer supporting them, I will keep the airframe that I own but will not support their engines, I'm due for an engine in the next couple of hundred hours (about 6 months) and today I have organised to go to a Lycoming. I also will not buy another airframe from them due to their arrogance in this complete debacle with Camit.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

 

I'm in the middle lane at present. As more info become available I may change lanes.

 

 

[fritterburner]

I'm not so sure Geoff. From the feedback from happy forumites about the difference in service between the two companies, many were planning on making their next engine a CAE when the time came. Sonex had just announced the OEM deal. Etc. Unfortunately for CAMit, the time didn't come soon enough.

 

I'm not about to go into the IP arrangements etc - it's already been covered by others in more detail - but I assume it was legal and robust enough to not have Jabiru stomp CAMit out right at the emergence of the first CAMit-modified engine. Oscar would have more details on what some of the early modifications were, and we know these then evolved to encompass a complete engine as Ian tweaked more of the design as time went on.

 

CAMit used to make the complete engine for Jabiru (excepting cast components and other items like valves, springs etc). As time went on - and this has also been covered elsewhere - Jabiru sought to lower costs through sourcing items from other suppliers. Cast rocker arms and camshafts, for example. What other option did CAMit have, when they were slowly getting edged out of the supply chain? Selling their own engine would have had a higher profit margin for them, kept jobs in-house and reduced the risk if or when Jabiru were to decide to source complete engines from somewhere else.

 

Reports that the new Jab engine at Oz-Kosh were developed in house and will be assembled under their roof when the time comes almost tell me that this may have been down Jabiru's chosen path after all - complete in-house control of their product. Not knowing, I can't say so don't want to comment further there. When Jabiru eventually rolls over to this new engine of theirs, where would this have left CAMit? Without their own product after all that, and suddenly, no orders from Jabiru anymore? Not at death's doorstep, but halfway down the hallway, commenting on the hat stand.

 

 

[jetjr]

And with that deliberate decision to shaft Camit, Jabiru gave another middle finger salute to all existing engine owners

 

Camit borrowed and took risk on the back of agreements with Jabiru and long term sales.

 

They watched as Jabiru altered and changed the product resulting develop serious problems doing little to fix. Wouldn't even listen to their knowledge and understanding of the issues.

 

Only through CAE and CASA taking this track (forcing Jabiru to do some hard work and admit some problems) does the Jabiru engine survive at all

 

Camit are the only ones who have presented the engine as reliable as it should be.

 

 

[mkennard]

I'm at a loss. My 3300 only lasted 250 hours. I went to Ozkosh to see what's happening before I made the decision of which way to go. the Camit was looking preferable but wasn't 100% keen on converting my plane to a 24E.If I can believe Jabiru, I would wait till the new engine comes out but it's like Microsoft, this is the best product we've released but...

 

 

[AllanBendigo]

Every Jabiru engine owner has a real problem if they need parts

 

There are over 7000 Jab motors around the world with very little or no more spare parts available

 

This is not good for anyone

 

The market for second hand Jabiru planes will now be rock bottom

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

[ATTACH=full]46251[/ATTACH]I'm in the middle lane at present. As more info become available I may change lanes.

Sorry people, I wasn't trying to make light of a tragic situation. I think Leunig's materpiece has captured my current mood.

 

 

[facthunter]

You need a bit of levity. Welcome to aviation. IF you look hard enough there's always someone worse off, specially in todays world. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I worked hard for months getting my plane ready for the trip to Narromine. I had a great time- the flight, meeting so many people, seeing so many other planes and interesting engines. All this was totally spoiled by the news about CAMit.

 

Earlier, I was standing right next to the person largely responsible for this huge loss to Australian manufacturing. Glad I didn't know at the time, or I might have done something rash.

 

 

[Downunder]

There are over 7000 Jab motors around the world with very little or no more spare parts available

So Jabiru may see a bright future for the new engine with 7000 potential customers?

 

 

[jetjr]

Im sure that was always Rods plan

 

Id suggest it will renew interest in Rotax and Other conversions

 

 

[geoffreywh]

I read that there is a lack of spare parts ? ("There are over 7000 Jab motors around the world with very little or no more spare parts available") What is this based upon. I'm rebuilding an engine and the bits needed have arrived nicely (so far) thankyou...

 

..That aside , I really feel for Ian (Camit,) , he put a lot of time and effort into engine development and there appeared to be a really good market. I also read of a Forum person willing to fit a Lycoming 235? I would have thought that the 235 might be a bit much for the Jabiru. (Prop Diameter for one thing) and weight, although I completely understand the figuring behind the choice. (Durability, Longevity, Stability of Supply ect) The Camit six was perfect.....Oh Well, My Continental is looking better and better!

 

 

[JEM]

Allan@Bendigo said: ↑

 

There are over 7000 Jab motors around the world with very little or no more spare parts available.

 

I haven't seen anything official yet from Jabiru about their spare parts situation. They may already hold or be able to source adequate supplies.

 

Several Jabiru engines are type certificated or certified by CASA (VA514 etc) and CASA certification may include a requirement by CASA for Jabiru to stock or distribute parts for existing certified engines.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I hope Bex will buy the operation and get it chugging along again to make the Bexmotor.

I had some discussions late last year on the matter with Ian then this thread came up; Need Help - Shell bearing diagnosis. and to be honest I am a little underwhelmed by the entire engine's design. Add to that, Ian wasn't sure if he was going to even get through Xmas (2015) at the time.

 

I had an interest in buying short engines and putting my own single piece heads on made here. I am aware of where Rotec's water cooled heads are made here so the jigging is already done (that's the hard work), so I would only have to supply castings.

 

Speaking of Rotec's heads, Camit and Jabiru should be embarrassed that one guy can manage on his own to come up with an answer and get them into production on a minuscule budget. I realise there's a lot more for certified engines, but Jab sells plenty of non-cert engines as well.

 

So Jabiru may see a bright future for the new engine with 7000 potential customers?

As are others ....