Camit engines - anyone got one?

[Bat Hawk]

Hi Guys. I have just visited Camit in Australia to learn how to install the solid lifter conversion kits to existing Jabiru engines . We have also installed almost 5% of every Jabiru Engine which exists. The initial Jabiru solid lifter engine was an awesome engine we all know that. The hydraulic lifters and attempt to reduce cost of the engine by Rod Stiff created all sorts of problems for us all. The modern Jabiru engine is not a great engine at all. Through bolt failures, rust in barrels if not flown every week, poor quality starters, poor quality coils, heating and cooling problems and valves staying open etc etc. the list goes on I can assure you. We have a good relationship with Jabiru SA and a lot of respect for them as well. If it was not for Len and Les Jabiru would certainly not be where they are now. It is not unfair at all for CASA to consider steps to make the Jabiru a safer engine. Rod Stiff is unfortunately too arrogant for his own good and this trait will most likely lead to the demise of the Jabiru Engine brand, not aircraft. He has been advised over the years from Experts such as Len and Ian Bent as to some of the problems the Jabiru engine has and has never given them the correct attention they need. They are solutions to solving all Jabirus shortcomings but they will never emerge unless Rod admits he has been making "crap" engines for the last few years and takes responsibility for this. However this will mean that he will have to fix all the problems and that is simply not feasible considering that there are around 6500 engines worldwide. However either way there is going to be some sort of result due to the CASA letter. We have installed 15 Camit engines so far. None of which have given 1 second of trouble. All he has done is go back to the original design with a few improvements. The Camit engine is awesome and they do sell cores to customers who would rather prefer a solid lifter with upgraded barrels crank and heads than overhaul there hydraulic lifter version. Ian Bent is a modest, humble expert who will answer any of your questions even being as busy as he is. Please don't hesitate to contact me or Ian if you have any questions. Thanks

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Guys. I have just visited Camit in Australia to learn how to install the solid lifter conversion kits to existing Jabiru engines . We have also installed almost 5% of every Jabiru Engine which exists. The initial Jabiru solid lifter engine was an awesome engine we all know that. The hydraulic lifters and attempt to reduce cost of the engine by Rod Stiff created all sorts of problems for us all. The modern Jabiru engine is not a great engine at all. Through bolt failures, rust in barrels if not flown every week, poor quality starters, poor quality coils, heating and cooling problems and valves staying open etc etc. the list goes on I can assure you. We have a good relationship with Jabiru SA and a lot of respect for them as well. If it was not for Len and Les Jabiru would certainly not be where they are now. It is not unfair at all for CASA to consider steps to make the Jabiru a safer engine. Rod Stiff is unfortunately too arrogant for his own good and this trait will most likely lead to the demise of the Jabiru Engine brand, not aircraft. He has been advised over the years from Experts such as Len and Ian Bent as to some of the problems the Jabiru engine has and has never given them the correct attention they need. They are solutions to solving all Jabirus shortcomings but they will never emerge unless Rod admits he has been making "crap" engines for the last few years and takes responsibility for this. However this will mean that he will have to fix all the problems and that is simply not feasible considering that there are around 6500 engines worldwide. However either way there is going to be some sort of result due to the CASA letter. We have installed 15 Camit engines so far. None of which have given 1 second of trouble. All he has done is go back to the original design with a few improvements. The Camit engine is awesome and they do sell cores to customers who would rather prefer a solid lifter with upgraded barrels crank and heads than overhaul there hydraulic lifter version. Ian Bent is a modest, humble expert who will answer any of your questions even being as busy as he is. Please don't hesitate to contact me or Ian if you have any questions. Thanks

Lets hope that sanity prevails and the CAE engine gets certified and gets introduced sooner rather than later.

 

 

[ianboag]

The initial Jabiru solid lifter engine was an awesome engine we all know that.

So long as you didn't mind tightening up the overheated heads every 25 hours and having them pull in until the tappets hit the cover ....

 

 

[jetjr]

How about dont overheat heads and it isnt a problem.

 

I ran old heads for 750hrs, with little or no adjustments. upgraded heads and so far no adjustments at all.

 

If you kept on adjusting that much without looking at what was going wrong, you deserve a failure.

 

 

[ianboag]

How about dont overheat heads and it isnt a problem.I ran old heads for 750hrs, with little or no adjustments. upgraded heads and so far no adjustments at all.

If you kept on adjusting that much without looking at what was going wrong, you deserve a failure.

I'm just telling it how it was. Not all the users - even ones with Jabiru airframes - were as clever as you .... seems that Rod wasn't either.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

How about dont overheat heads and it isnt a problem.I ran old heads for 750hrs, with little or no adjustments. upgraded heads and so far no adjustments at all.

If you kept on adjusting that much without looking at what was going wrong, you deserve a failure.

Your post is undeniably agree'able, but I would prefer an engine that can get away with being abused by idiots.

 

On Sunday I left home for Chongqing driving a friends 2007, 200,000km old Toyota 2.0 Camry with 4 Adults - 5 hours straight down the freeway at 3100 - 3200rom (130kmh) with a petrol stop, then an hour's city driving, had my meeting and stayed overnight. Monday morning straight back for 5 hours at 3100 - 3200rpm and couldn't help but think that there's something seriously amiss in aviation.

 

Aviation; you're doing it wrong.

 

Very keen to see how the Viking fairs long term and note that they are already 100 to 200 hour or so engines before they are fitted to the plane.

 

 

[Ultralights]

but at what % of horsepower was being used at those highway cruising speeds?

 

my bet is average about 30%.. with peaks of 100% for overtaking, and hills.

 

and aircraft engine has to run at 75 to 100% output, constantly... not many car engines would do that for hundreds of hours...

 

 

[gandalph]

Your post is undeniably agree'able, but I would prefer an engine that can get away with being abused by idiots.On Sunday I left home for Chongqing driving a friends 2007, 200,000km old Toyota 2.0 Camry with 4 Adults - 5 hours straight down the freeway at 3100 - 3200rom (130kmh) with a petrol stop, then an hour's city driving, had my meeting and stayed overnight. Monday morning straight back for 5 hours at 3100 - 3200rpm and couldn't help but think that there's something seriously amiss in aviation.

 

Aviation; you're doing it wrong.

 

Very keen to see how the Viking fairs long term and note that they are already 100 to 200 hour or so engines before they are fitted to the plane.

Fit it with 2 Bings and install it in your Sportstar, Jabiru, whatever, and give us a progress report.....

 

My biggest concern with with the Viking conversion is the history of the bloke behind it (and I don't mean Mr Honda)

 

 

[bexrbetter]

not many car engines would do that for hundreds of hours...

Uh, huh .... Aviator's 'Lore' and absolutely untrue.

 

Fit it with 2 Bings

And maybe I could carve the wheels from stone as well.

 

I'll stick with EFI thanks.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Uh, huh .... Aviator's 'Lore' and absolutely untrue.

.What bits untrue? I've heard what they say and I agree with them, in terms of it sounds logical...Take a jab six for example.......Cruise at 2850rpm says the factory....Ummm according to the jabiru published power curve (here) top power of 90kW is obtained at 3300rpm....only I don't know of folk with the standard Jab props that will see 3300rpm in anyform of standard flying (you might I suppose, if trying for Vne straight and level.....but not sure myself) Rather I can get 3100 out of it on climb....that's 86kW according to the curve on page 2 of the pdf I linked to abpve 2850 is 83kW or 92% of rated power.......perhaps that fact alone is worth considering in terms of MTBO not being for some, what the factory say it should be....

 

I doubt that a car engine is ever asked to produce 92% of rated power for hours on end? (in non test regime)

 

And maybe I could carve the wheels from stone as well.I'll stick with EFI thanks.

I agree I really wonder if a modern EFI system would really be that much more unreliable....Rotax clearly don't think so...

 

Andy

 

 

[JimG]

For those who question whether or not an auto engine can sustain long periods of high power output.

 

Just watch this entire clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tEqwXrqzH4

 

Cheers

 

JimG

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Jim

 

Thanks for that, I did watch the whole thing but I don't think it argued against my points at all.......In the first section they ran it flat out on a dyno for 300hrs...and claimed that was the equivalent of the engine doing 150,000miles......if we presume, even the nascar average speed of 80miles per hour (and that's likely much much higher than real life averages) then that real life represents 1875hrs of useto provide the 150,000 hrs equivalent...if, as I suspect real life averages are closer to 30mph then that's 5000hrs of life. so 1hr of tough dyno time is equivalent to 6hrs of nascar testing time or a bit less than 17hrs of likely real life if driven to the nascar section level of stress

 

The rest of the clip was useful but I still had no idea if pulling logs represented 100% of engine rated power, nor if nascar routine did either...

 

Andy

 

Notwithstanding all that it was an interesting video

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Now, Mr. Ford; build an 80hp version that weighs 60-odd kg... and is affordable and easy and cheap to maintain.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Run a jab at full throttle for an hour

 

 

[geoffreywh]

QUOTE="Andys@coffs, post: 464060, "Even the nascar average speed of 80miles per hour"

 

Nascar average speed is 80mph?........... Well yes I suppose it might be IF you run at 200MPH (is that flat knakker?) for 496 laps Then there's a crash 4 laps from the end and they circulate at 40mph for 20 minutes... Great statistics, you should get a job with Jabiru

 

 

[bexrbetter]

.What bits untrue?

All of your foundation mostly.

 

Had this argument too many times, I have no idea why a number of Aviators want this to be true.

 

Light aviation is so far behind the rest of anything else engine wise it's ridiculous. I can only imagine the frustration of Rotax engineers holding themselves back while going backwards from everything they stood for while designing the 912.

 

Seigfried, this secret plan you stole for people's car engine of Hitler's, you know is now 1995 and war is over?

 

Now, Mr. Ford; build an 80hp version that weighs 60-odd kg... and is affordable and easy and cheap to maintain.

They already have and running around in the hundreds of thousands. The fact is 2/3's of you lot would bag it if anyone presented as an aircraft engine.

 

Rotax themselves and many others have even better spec engines but it comes down to acceptance and from what I have seen here, at HBA and other aviation forums, acceptance is very poor .

 

 

[bexrbetter]

They already have and running around in the hundreds of thousands. The fact is 2/3's of you lot would bag it if anyone presented as an aircraft engine.

Well there you go, somebody is using it ...

 

http://www.flyskyrunner.com/

 

 

[gandalph]

They already have and running around in the hundreds of thousands. The fact is 2/3's of you lot would bag it if anyone presented as an aircraft engine.

/QUOTE]

 

Which leads to the obvious question: When can we expect to see the BexrBetterBoxerBanger?

[SDQDI]

QUOTE="Andys@coffs, post: 464060, "Even the nascar average speed of 80miles per hour"

Nascar average speed is 80mph?........... Well yes I suppose it might be IF you run at 200MPH (is that flat knakker?) for 496 laps Then there's a crash 4 laps from the end and they circulate at 40mph for 20 minutes... Great statistics, you should get a job with Jabiru

If you had a look at the video before bagging him out you would see that he was 100% correct in what he was saying:gangnam:

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Which leads to the obvious question: When can we expect to see the BexrBetterBoxerBanger?

I am encouraging the use of automotive engines as a genuine alternate and that raises an "obvious question" about mine?

 

I would have thought I was doing myself no favours at all encouraging alternates!

 

 

[gandalph]

I am encouraging the use of automotive engines as a genuine alternate and that raises an "obvious question" about mine?I would have thought I was doing myself no favours at all encouraging alternates!

No, your post just fired some synapses and it occurred to me that I hadn't heard much about your project for a while. I would've thought with CASA trying to turn Oz's rec flying into a monoculture as far as engine manufacturers go, it would be a great opportunity for a grand announcement. Then we would truly be able to say: "Bex makes it Better!" (showing my age again)

 

 

[geoffreywh]

My goodness that old chestnut again..............I've said it so often..My 0-200 is the pinnacle of light aviation engine design (well, almost.) it puts out 80 odd hp for 3.2 ltr @ 170lbs ....It can run at that 80+ horse for quite a long time non-stop. But so can just about every other (real) engine made today! The poor old Continental is producing about 25 hp per litre....So it should bloody well run forever it's not doing anything!!!! Jabiru is the same....Lazy old lump of an engine..3.3 ltr and 100 horse constant.....There are modern motors that IDLE faster than the 0-200 at max revs. ! and that's not a joke....All this bulls^^it about only running at 30% power. ( auto engines) That's just a result of the state of tune. If an automotive engine designer saw a requirement for an engine to run at 100% for 10 minutes and 75% forever then he could just change the cam and reset the FADEC parameters and it would be ready this afternoon.... Aviations engines are NOT wonderful they're antiquated, heavy, inefficient and unreliable!.............................. ( with a bit of an exception for Rotax which was designed for something else first anyway) .....

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

"Now, Mr. Ford; build an 80hp version that weighs 60-odd kg... and is affordable and easy and cheap to maintain."

They already have and running around in the hundreds of thousands. The fact is 2/3's of you lot would bag it if anyone presented as an aircraft engine...

More info please, Bex; we're not all Luddites, and many of us would love to fit a lightweight, reliable engine adapted from a car or motorcycle. I spent an awful lot of time looking for such an engine to install in my beast. Every adaptation was heavier than the Jabiru.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Of course. because it is an adaptation.....aviation is too troublesome by far to get an auto manufacturer on board, there's more money in cars, That's why we wait patiently for Bex.....Although the "Take off" 1200cc Beemer would make that 2200 jab of yours look like a seriously sick slug....But 160lbs...

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Every adaptation was heavier than the Jabiru.

Most car engines will be, comes down to what you want to trade off with what. If it's weight then a motorcycle engine will have to be the go.

 

More info please, Bex; we're not all Luddites, and many of us would love to fit a lightweight, reliable engine adapted from a car or motorcycle.

That Ford engine I am refering to is the Ecoboost 1.0, 120hp Turbo or the non-turbo 80hp Fox.

 

If I was looking for a lightweight engine, Suzuki 1200 Bandit is your answer. Made for 10 years, the engine was made for another 10 before that (Suzuki GSX1100), cheap, bulletproof, air/oil cooled, and your 80hp at 60% RPM.

 

Tied for first place is the air cooled Yamaha FJ1200, The engine is still being made new today (the Aussie Racing Cars use them as do the Legends cars in the UK and USA). The base engine is now 30 years old and bulletproof from it's inception as the FJ1100. It is heavier than the Suzuki.

 

All these cars use the stock FJ1200, watch from inside the car how they are treated and try to tell me they won't last in a plane ..

 

That's 2007 also, they have been racing many years now and are still current with huge entry lists for each race. Might actually make FJ1200 engines more expensive though because of demand.If you don't mind water cooling, the list is almost endless, but again the later Suzuki Bandit 1250 stands tall as does the Yamaha FJ1300. These are "Touring" engines so milder cams compared to sports bikes and more where you need the power for the aircraft.