Camit engines - anyone got one?

[jetjr]

Ok and in the mean time your flying a 130 hp UL power? Hows it go?

 

Ill be ontereted when the 50% sale price is on

 

€20K ex works

 

Its also a four not a six, six is way too heavy

 

 

[smokybear]

From Camel...many moons ago !

 

“Your opinion ! How much variation in temps on cylinder heads and exhaust occur ? Which is the hottest pot ? I do not have individual sensors and always runs cool because I don't give it a reason to run hot, cruise climb, level off every 500ft to cool, climb out never below 80knts usual 90knts ! I have observed many that ignore engine management and agree that carefully monitoring and operating is important but individual cylinder monitoring is good but no way essential ! Good engine management and maintenance is the key to long engine life. Knowing my aircraft I would happily fly with no cht or egt and don't think that is being too reckless”

 

I’m sure it’s not an easy task to design and produce an all new light aircraft engine from scratch and expect it to perform reliably (and with a reasonable TBO) right from day one. However at the five figure prices that are being asked in today’s market place for these engines, a pilot should not have to be a full time nanny or wet nurse to get a reasonable service life from these expensive engines (as outlined by Camel’s post quoted above)

 

Eg... the DH Gipsy Major air cooled four cylinder engine (first run in 1932) had a total production run of more than 14,000 units with a TBO of 1,500 hours. This engine was frequently “hammered” to death by countless trainee military pilots (and their instructors) all over the world, in Tiger Moths and Chipmunks, right through the 1930’s/40’s/50’s and 60’s.

 

I learnt to fly in the Chipmunk in 1967, sitting behind a Gypsy Major engine with an Military instructor who “cruelly abused” the poor old engine with countless aerobatics/tail slides/spins/practice forced landings and formation flying. He encouraged (in fact demanded) that I do likewise ! In later years I clocked up a further 600 or more Chipmunk hours towing gliders. I have no recollection whatsoever of any CHT gauges or similar indicators in the cockpit, only an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge, neither of which seemed to move much from start-up to shut-down !

 

I do remember countless tug pilots towing old Sedburgh T21 gliders up to their release height with just 65 knots on the Chipmunk's ASI, followed by rapid steep dives back to the airfield to launch a constant queue of waiting gliders (throttle fully closed-massive shock cooling)...all day long....year in, year out. In my (limited) experience, these engines rarely “broke” and never overheated, and invariably reached their TBO. (Comments/corrections from engineers/overhaul workshops who found this not to be the case are welcomed !!)

 

Similar small pistons engines made in countries such as Germany/Poland/Czechslovakia/Russia suffered similar “abuse” at the hands of their military and trainee pilots and achieved similar reliability and TBO’s.

 

Our track record in this our own country, for reliable design, high quality manufacturing, AND reliable in-service operation is not exactly illustrious. The Nomad, the Leyland P76, the Collins Class Submarines, The West Gate Bridge, and various Australian made Naval ships tell their own story.

 

We do not seem to be an introspective culture that freely and generously shares information with our fellow man. We admire our sporting (and other) heroes and routinely ignore or cruelly denigrate those who fail. We seem determined to want to "reinvent" the wheel, rather than have the humility to learn from our far away cousins in the Northern hemisphere.

 

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/RiskManagement/nomadic.html

 

http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/HistoryRecord/HistoryRecordDetail.aspx?rid=224

 

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3157437.htm

 

 

[facthunter]

I've done a bit of time behind both the I- c and the 10 Mk2 Gipsy majors and spent plenty of time talking to maintenance people as I have an interest quite strong in that area. While the TBO is probably where you say many went over that with the bottom end but they were given a top pretty often. Around 400 hours from my recollection was common and probably rings on the second time. Those engines had virtually NO aircleaners so bore wear would be relating to dust. They are very undertuned 130 HP for one and 145 for the other which ran a bit faster . IF you ran the 1 c above 2050 rpm you were thrashing it. Normal was 1950. The air chamber down one side was quite capable of keeping the engine cool but with banner towing they got real hot and I presume with gliders as well but it's not for as long to release..

 

Displacement is 374 cu ins or a bit over 6 litres so not real highly tuned. Nev

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I think there are are quite few issues quoted there that that don't really stand up.

 

The first one is that the old engines were reliable.

 

I was not around then and started my career behind (or actually in front of lycomings and continentals ) but have recollections of old & bolds at the aero club telling us of tales of when the engines in tiger moths and chippies conked out. I do recall one Tiger Moth here in Cairns years ago (maybe that was decades ago having an engine failure.

 

But of course your recollection, their recollections and my naive onlookers assessment carries no statistics that give a true incidence of failures. Observer bias and recall bias are wonderful things.

 

(and this is the biggest flaw in the CASA rulings on Jabs).

 

Realistically, If they were that reliable we would still be using them. We aren't so I wonder about the veracity of that sentiment.

 

But even if they were that reliable something you have missed is that a large swathe (read that as VERY large swathe of the Jabiru engines (and Rotax and Camits) that are in the fleet are used for 20 to 50 hours a year. The engines you are talking about were (it sounds from by your description) being flogged daily and probably many hours a day.

 

Engines in flying schools with the heavy frequent users seem to have had the best results. (OK there is one school that has had a clustering of failures in Jabiru engines - which is a bit suspicious) Perhaps Gypsies would have fared the same if used by the weekender, once a month.

 

Then add to that that the engines in question they are often tinkered with by the owners and maintenance is highly variable.. Next they are not all the same engines even if they are set up externally similarly. Installations vary and the conditions which dictate cooling, vibrations etc are all highly variable unlike military aircraft which are all set up the same and maintained the same.

 

We could all have a bomb-proof engine if we were prepared to pay for it. But that's the next failing of your argument.

 

These engines are being made to be paid for by the occasional flier with the mortgage, family, kids and a car to pay for as well. There is no tax payer forking out through the military budget for them. So they are produced as cheaply as possible (Although Jabs Still at the price of a small car. Rotaxes at the price of moderately expensive small car. But all way cheaper than the luxury car price of a continental or Lycoming which is about the nearest modern equivalent you can get to a Gypsy, I guess.

 

That's part of the compromise we have to pay.

 

 

[jetjr]

might have a few weight issues in modern ultralights too Id guess

 

How much do you think they should cost? I dont see Jabiru or CAE making lots of money from the venture. CASA nearly ended them both under 12 months ago

 

 

[Jaba-who]

might have a few weight issues in modern ultralights too Id guessHow much do you think they should cost? I dont see Jabiru or CAE making lots of money from the venture. CASA nearly ended them both under 12 months ago

I have no idea what they "should" cost.

 

Production price plus, some extra for capital expenditure plus some for R & D. Some profit to keep the banks agreeing to lend them money. And some to reward those who invested their lives and savings and houses and etc etc in the venture. A big slab to pay the tax department for the pleasure and honour of shoring up the Oz GDP.

 

I have no idea. Just like outsiders have no idea how much my business costs or my fees should be.

 

Personally I don't begrudge them the cost of the engine. I recognize that the cost might be about the same as a small car (in fact I paid less for my daughter for a new Nissan Micra a couple of years back) but cars have the benefit of huge numbers to help keep costs down. But I was making the point that compared to Lycomings and Continentals they are pretty cheap. But thats what they have to be to sell.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Off the subject but to put things into perspective, the Toyota V8 Diesel that powers my work ute has injectors which apparently cost around $1000 each. So a eight grand bill if/when they all need changing. Unfortunately every thing these days cost a lot of coin.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Off the subject but to put things into perspective, the Toyota V8 Diesel that powers my work ute has injectors which apparently cost around $1000 each. So a eight grand bill if/when they all need changing. Unfortunately every thing these days cost a lot of coin.

Yep and a $15-20K bill if you get water in the system. Good thing is they will go way past 300,ooo klms if you have proper filtration.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Yep and a $15-20K bill if you get water in the system. Good thing is they will go way past 300,ooo klms if you have proper filtration.

Apparently a brand new the engine is around $34 000. Ouch

Ps- I do approx 5 000 kays in my privately owned 4.2 turbo Patrol a year and I do approx 25 000 kays a year in my Toyota Landcruiser V8 ute. I love my work cruiser, I have been all over SE QLD in her.

 

 

[jetjr]

I have no idea what they "should" cost.Production price plus, some extra for capital expenditure plus some for R & D. Some profit to keep the banks agreeing to lend them money. And some to reward those who invested their lives and savings and houses and etc etc in the venture. A big slab to pay the tax department for the pleasure and honour of shoring up the Oz GDP.

I have no idea. Just like outsiders have no idea how much my business costs or my fees should be.

 

Personally I don't begrudge them the cost of the engine. I recognize that the cost might be about the same as a small car (in fact I paid less for my daughter for a new Nissan Micra a couple of years back) but cars have the benefit of huge numbers to help keep costs down. But I was making the point that compared to Lycomings and Continentals they are pretty cheap. But thats what they have to be to sell.

Question was to Smokey bear sorry

I agre with your comments

 

 

[Camel]

Just for your thoughts !

 

In disscussion a friend said he liked the new Jab roller cam follower engine, I said what about Camit, " he suggested mix and match, camit heads and barrels, Jabiru cam, hydraulic roller followers and valve train ".

 

what are the thoughts on this mix and match theory ? It all sounds feasible but I have no idea if it could be even considered ?

 

 

[jetjr]

No real problem, parts fit. Be aware CAE dont build a hydraulic version so not everything is transferable.

 

A good talk with CAE will illustrate its more than the parts but case assembly methods along with head materials that works together to sort issues,

 

Once commercial labour costs taken onto account, the core CAE isnt bad value.

 

There are several getting built like your suggestion. Obviously only experimentals can do it.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Just for your thoughts !In disscussion a friend said he liked the new Jab roller cam follower engine, I said what about Camit, " he suggested mix and match, camit heads and barrels, Jabiru cam, hydraulic roller followers and valve train ".

what are the thoughts on this mix and match theory ? It all sounds feasible but I have no idea if it could be even considered ?

What you are suggesting is the cross-between-a-camel-and-a-dromedary arrangement. What would we call such an engine: Jamit?

 

Seriously though, it could potentially be a winner if someone was prepared to make them like you suggest.

 

 

[David Isaac]

There is obviously a valid reason why Camit do NOT have a hydraulic lifter version. Obviously a little more complex than a nicety. Now think about that for a minute .....

 

Ask the boys who really know why.

 

 

[Oscar]

jj, don't rely on CAMit engine parts continuing to fit Jabiru engines. I believe there will be clarification forthcoming from CAMit in the reasonably near future.

 

 

[facthunter]

Mix and match won't work anyhow.You have no guarantee that you won't introduce a fault that didn't exist in either engine. Roller followers are a general advantage but not always necessary . Hydraulic lifters can fail (I've had one nearly kill me) and they also require higher valve spring pressures (usually) which is more likely to overload valve gear valves and structure generally. Valves can pump up and not seat well which will cause overheating of the valve and possible failure by detonation. The red hot valve acts as a glow plug and is more likely to break off.. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

The idea of mixing components between Jabiru and CAMit engines is a very bad one, for the basic reasons Nev has outlined. CAMit has done years of research and development work looking at the 'system chain' of how components interact with each other in operation, to determine its overall design approach. If you were to change the 'system' of a CAMit engine without a detailed knowledge of all the potential effects, then you'd be venturing off into unknown territory and as Nev says, potentially introducing new and 'interesting' problems.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm more worried about individuals selecting "improved " parts and just fitting up their own version without "expert" advice and guidance.. I would be surprised if Ian Bent doesn't supply "suitable" upgrades that are compatible with existing engines. CAMit will be the principle source of ongoing parts for the earlier versions, as he made them all along the way for Jabiru. Certified engines are constrained by the terms they are certified under, but perhaps some mods will be approved. A Certified aeroplane or LSA is hard to legally modify. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Just for your thoughts !In disscussion a friend said he liked the new Jab roller cam follower engine, I said what about Camit, " he suggested mix and match, camit heads and barrels, Jabiru cam, hydraulic roller followers and valve train ".

what are the thoughts on this mix and match theory ? It all sounds feasible but I have no idea if it could be even considered ?

you mate sounds like he's a step ahead of the game eh?

 

 

[Oscar]

you mate sounds like he's a step ahead of the game eh?

Nope.

 

 

[Aldo]

you mate sounds like he's a step ahead of the game eh?

I'd say his mate is a complete dill, why anyone would mix and match parts from one engine manufacturer with another is beyond belief and people wonder why things like CTA transit is so hard to sell to the powers that be when we have people that even consider the above properisition.

 

Aldo

 

 

[DrZoos]

Jee whiz if the right brothers gave up trying things none of us might even be flying...

 

As long as its done properly and the engine is never sold or used as a normal engine with unsuspecting pilots or pax...why not try it...

 

but it certainly should be viewed and used as highly experimental and if flown, flown as such and under experimental type circuits etc

 

We swap cams and valves in 4 stroke dirt bikes from similar models eg: YZ to WR 450 and even custom cams from after markets all the time with no issues at all. We even grind and weld bits on and off for the hot starters. Im not saying I would do it for my aircraft , but I dont think we should be so quick to shut this down...

 

I know dirt bikes dont drop out fo the sky, but they certainly rev a lot harder than any jab or rotax and ingest a lot of dirt, high temps etc ...some guys have even had the wrong cams in and at the wrong timing for thousands of kms with no issues other than starting, heat and fuel range.

 

 

[Aldo]

Jee whiz if the right brothers gave up trying things none of us might even be flying...As long as its done properly and the engine is never sold or used as a normal engine with unsuspecting pilots or pax...why not try it...

 

but it certainly should be viewed and used as highly experimental and if flown, flown as such and under experimental type circuits etc

 

We swap cams and valves in 4 stroke dirt bikes from similar models eg: YZ to WR 450 and even custom cams from after markets all the time with no issues at all. We even grind and weld bits on and off for the hot starters. Im not saying I would do it for my aircraft , but I dont think we should be so quick to shut this down...

 

I know dirt bikes dont drop out fo the sky, but they certainly rev a lot harder than any jab or rotax and ingest a lot of dirt, high temps etc ...some guys have even had the wrong cams in and at the wrong timing for thousands of kms with no issues other than starting, heat and fuel range.

Doc

 

Because we are a couple of years past the Wright Bros and most design is now done with computer simulation FEA's etc why do some think they can do better in the home garage.

 

Aldo

 

 

[deadstick]

Let him experiment I say, who knows what he might stumble upon. After all isn't that what this category of flying is all about? Stand fast LSA! I know of a few 'Camaru' engines floating about at the moment.

 

 

[DrZoos]

When the redbull wingsuit dude wanted to fly with hydrogen peroxide strapped to him they said it was too dangerous, couldnt be done

 

When the first guys started changing cams in the yamaha dirt bikes back around 2000 they where told they couldnt and now its one fo the first upgrades many make on any dirt bike... and believe me it works far better than the engine supplied by the mighty Yamaha...

 

Lets not kill creativity, lets just ask that it be done safely