Camit engines - anyone got one?

[Jaba-who]

My understanding is there are about 200 jab engines of the most recent generation but I have no idea what the breakdown of 3300 to 2200 are.

 

( most were in the field before the restrictions came into place.

 

The big problem as said above is the there are hybrids as well and I know if one which was a jab basic engine which had camit parts added and then there was a failure - and it's even hard to work out from the ATSB report and from the scuttlebutt I have been told which bits were which, and then whose bits that failed.

 

So as soon as you get a hybridisation its hard to say whose engine type was the failure.

 

 

[jetjr]

Id doubt there are that many Jabiru's built with new throughbolts and all the mods needed to release limitations

 

Some of these up grades were only "discovered" mid last year

 

Camit would know how many were put together, Id suggest possibly less than Camit engines

 

The sad part about Jabiru saga is that it impacts CAE too.

 

 

[JohnC]

My understanding is there are about 200 jab engines of the most recent generation but I have no idea what the breakdown of 3300 to 2200 are.( most were in the field before the restrictions came into place.

The big problem as said above is the there are hybrids as well and I know if one which was a jab basic engine which had camit parts added and then there was a failure - and it's even hard to work out from the ATSB report and from the scuttlebutt I have been told which bits were which, and then whose bits that failed.

 

So as soon as you get a hybridisation its hard to say whose engine type was the failure.

Yes I couldn't agree more, and that was one of my considerations when deciding to replace the complete engine package including all auxiliaries and new exhausts, cooling ducts, revised charging system etc, etc.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Dear All, thanks for the additional replies and information, I am currently in the process of ordering a new Camit 3300 and we (Ian Bent & I) are working to ensure we get the best options for my aircraft - this could be a long process as I can be "a bit finicky and a pain in the a****", however I'm a believer of do your research and put the time in at the start and save a lot of heartache and time later down the road.Everything I have read and heard independently from Camit owners is 100% positive and I now have no doubt that Camit have addressed and sorted all of the weaknesses with this engine, I have also looked at other engine manufactures but my opinion is the Camit comes out way on top.

Jabiru engines are having a tough time in the UK at present as failures are becoming regularly reported in the flying clubs, its a shame as this engine is an excellent design and just needs a little more development and improvement. The Camit engine is definitely the better of the two in my opinion as Camit have carried extensive R&D and 100+ modifications as problems have appeared, unfortunately Jabiru have their hands tied-up with certification and red tape, Camit don't.

 

I have decided to replace the complete engine and all auxiliaries simply for piece of mind and to achieve what I want - a super-reliable completely new package.

I'm not being a biased responder here but that's an interesting response. It does bely the very common but poor understanding of what has transpired with jabiru. There is a pervading impression that jabiru have not addressed problems and have not made advances while camit are the only ones who have done any. Its a very unfortunate thought process that exists widely.

 

Jabiru also have lots of mods and upgrades tried, included or abandoned. I've been to the factory for an engine course and there were prototypes of multiple different components all around the place. There were several complete new model engines there as well. There is no limitation on development because the one that is in use is licenced. New engines can be sold as unlicensed to experimental owners etc and new development is necessary before new supplications for licensing. The fact that New mods have been made is what has led CASA to remove those restrictions from the generation engines.

 

The mods made by both jabiru and by camit are mods that each stand by and both essentially dismiss the mods made by the other. I did a lot of questioning last year and when you talk to both, their ideas sound right then you talk to the other and their ideas sound right. Their refuting of the other, sounds right at the time too.

 

In the end it falls down to an opinion that can only be evaluated when enough engines with enough time on them are in the field.

 

The other process that's exists frequently is the bias posted several times on this forum that essentially says "jabiru have problems therefore if it is not a jabiru it is better than a jabiru." Its a common human mistake.

 

At present the very low number of camit engines means that if you have a sense of security in using the engine then statistically it is possibly misplaced.

 

I'm not saying jabiru is better or worse but as a statistician the low numbers and limited hours in the field means that asserting increased reliability at this stage is not valid.

 

Any feeling of increased reliability is as yet opinion only and while I haven't worked out the actual numbers yet, loosely to get reliable statistics we are probably a few years off.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Id doubt there are that many Jabiru's built with new throughbolts and all the mods needed to release limitationsSome of these up grades were only "discovered" mid last year

Camit would know how many were put together, Id suggest possibly less than Camit engines

 

The sad part about Jabiru saga is that it impacts CAE too.

I'm not sure on the numbers but as best i recall the serial number block that does comply according to the CASA publication ( and is removed from the restrictions) is from about s/n 2450 onwards for the 3300 models and I bought one with serial Number about 120 higher than that a few months before the restrictions came in.

 

Assuming no skipped s/n I'd be happy to accept a couple of hundred 3300s by now and ???probably a similar number of 2200s.

 

 

[JohnC]

I'm not being a biased responder here but that's an interesting response. It does bely the very common but poor understanding of what has transpired with jabiru. There is a pervading impression that jabiru have not addressed problems and have not made advances while camit are the only ones who have done any. Its a very unfortunate thought process that exists widely.Jabiru also have lots of mods and upgrades tried, included or abandoned. I've been to the factory for an engine course and there were prototypes of multiple different components all around the place. There were several complete new model engines there as well. There is no limitation on development because the one that is in use is licenced. New engines can be sold as unlicensed to experimental owners etc and new development is necessary before new supplications for licensing. The fact that New mods have been made is what has led CASA to remove those restrictions from the generation engines.

 

The mods made by both jabiru and by camit are mods that each stand by and both essentially dismiss the mods made by the other. I did a lot of questioning last year and when you talk to both, their ideas sound right then you talk to the other and their ideas sound right. Their refuting of the other, sounds right at the time too.

 

In the end it falls down to an opinion that can only be evaluated when enough engines with enough time on them are in the field.

 

The other process that's exists frequently is the bias posted several times on this forum that essentially says "jabiru have problems therefore if it is not a jabiru it is better than a jabiru." Its a common human mistake.

 

At present the very low number of camit engines means that if you have a sense of security in using the engine then statistically it is possibly misplaced.

 

I'm not saying jabiru is better or worse but as a statistician the low numbers and limited hours in the field means that asserting increased reliability at this stage is not valid.

 

Any feeling of increased reliability is as yet opinion only and while I haven't worked out the actual numbers yet, loosely to get reliable statistics we are probably a few years off.

I'm not being a biased responder here but that's an interesting response. It does bely the very common but poor understanding of what has transpired with jabiru. There is a pervading impression that jabiru have not addressed problems and have not made advances while camit are the only ones who have done any. Its a very unfortunate thought process that exists widely.Jabiru also have lots of mods and upgrades tried, included or abandoned. I've been to the factory for an engine course and there were prototypes of multiple different components all around the place. There were several complete new model engines there as well. There is no limitation on development because the one that is in use is licenced. New engines can be sold as unlicensed to experimental owners etc and new development is necessary before new supplications for licensing. The fact that New mods have been made is what has led CASA to remove those restrictions from the generation engines.

 

The mods made by both jabiru and by camit are mods that each stand by and both essentially dismiss the mods made by the other. I did a lot of questioning last year and when you talk to both, their ideas sound right then you talk to the other and their ideas sound right. Their refuting of the other, sounds right at the time too.

 

In the end it falls down to an opinion that can only be evaluated when enough engines with enough time on them are in the field.

 

The other process that's exists frequently is the bias posted several times on this forum that essentially says "jabiru have problems therefore if it is not a jabiru it is better than a jabiru." Its a common human mistake.

 

At present the very low number of camit engines means that if you have a sense of security in using the engine then statistically it is possibly misplaced.

 

I'm not saying jabiru is better or worse but as a statistician the low numbers and limited hours in the field means that asserting increased reliability at this stage is not valid.

 

Any feeling of increased reliability is as yet opinion only and while I haven't worked out the actual numbers yet, loosely to get reliable statistics we are probably a few years off.

Hi Jaba, you have many valid points, however we are now in the "realms of opinions" and unfortunately statistics which, as any politician knows, can be distorted, adjusted or altered to suit any argument, I personally make decisions based on fact.

 

Firstly I fly a Jabiru J400 with a Jabiru 3300 engine and have 400+ happy Jabiru flying hours. My opinion is the J400/430 is the best small 4 seat aircraft available and the 3300 engine is a well designed / well engineered engine unfortunately with a few engineering deficiencies that Jabiru did not address to the satisfaction of their customers, this is my opinion others may disagree.

 

I have suffered various engine failures and a forced landing, the problems started around the 400-500 hours. I have three friends with Jabiru engines and they all suffered similar failures at similar hours, this is fact. (If we want to venture into here-say read from the web and forums, there are plenty “Jabiru knockers”).

 

Camit have publicised all the modifications they have made, I have obtained independent testimonials from many Camit engine users in different parts of the world with run hours anything from 30 to 2000 hours, I have seen a Camit engine on display at a recent air show and discussed in length the technicalities of the Camit engine with their representative, I am currently having discussions with Camit direct and they are providing all the technical information I request and addressing any queries I have. I have no doubt Jabiru are doing their own R&D, I simply don’t have any idea of what they are up to and cannot get any definitive fact based answers. Unfortunately I live 20,000km away from Jabiru / Camit and popping-in to their factories is not an option.

 

When it came to parting with my cash I gave consideration to the following:-

 

Camit and Jabiru basically make the same 3300 engine with various individual changes and improvements, they both have a wealth of experience and knowledge with this engine and they both have the same operational historic data / run hours in the field, although I prefer Camits approach.

 

My experience with Camit and their agents is excellent and they provide a personnel service. My experience with Jabiru is good, however my experience with Jabiru's UK agent is abysmal and I refuse to deal with them.

 

I don’t like hydraulic lifters and never will – “I’m an old fashioned guy” and like to know what is going on in my valve gear.

 

What Camit did to the 3300 engine is exactly what I would have done to address the deficiencies.

 

JohnC

 

 

[Oscar]

I'm not being a biased responder here but that's an interesting response. It does bely the very common but poor understanding of what has transpired with jabiru. There is a pervading impression that jabiru have not addressed problems and have not made advances while camit are the only ones who have done any. Its a very unfortunate thought process that exists widely.Jabiru also have lots of mods and upgrades tried, included or abandoned. I've been to the factory for an engine course and there were prototypes of multiple different components all around the place. There were several complete new model engines there as well. There is no limitation on development because the one that is in use is licenced. New engines can be sold as unlicensed to experimental owners etc and new development is necessary before new supplications for licensing. The fact that New mods have been made is what has led CASA to remove those restrictions from the generation engines.

 

The mods made by both jabiru and by camit are mods that each stand by and both essentially dismiss the mods made by the other. I did a lot of questioning last year and when you talk to both, their ideas sound right then you talk to the other and their ideas sound right. Their refuting of the other, sounds right at the time too.

 

In the end it falls down to an opinion that can only be evaluated when enough engines with enough time on them are in the field.

 

The other process that's exists frequently is the bias posted several times on this forum that essentially says "jabiru have problems therefore if it is not a jabiru it is better than a jabiru." Its a common human mistake.

 

At present the very low number of camit engines means that if you have a sense of security in using the engine then statistically it is possibly misplaced.

 

I'm not saying jabiru is better or worse but as a statistician the low numbers and limited hours in the field means that asserting increased reliability at this stage is not valid.

 

Any feeling of increased reliability is as yet opinion only and while I haven't worked out the actual numbers yet, loosely to get reliable statistics we are probably a few years off.

Jw: :a lot of good points there.

 

Many people do not understand the complexities of all three of: Certification (which is proven compliance with testing to an international standard, such as, for example, JAR 22H, for the J2200C, which has to be supervised by the Airworthiness Authority (CASA); Certifying to ASTM standards (for later 2200 and all the 3300 engines) and Legal Responsibility. .Both Certification and Certifying require many, many expensive hours of testing and proving - we are talking Hundreds of $k's.

 

Legal Responsibility is a minefield, which is almost never settled without a Court case to 'test' the situation - and again, huge $$ for all concerned.. It would take pages of explanation as to why a company would not admit to a 'fault' in its product; even if it knows that in fact, that was the case. For an example, look at the cost for Samsung of the exploding batteries in its latest smartphone...

 

Jabiru has to juggle all of those factors. Nobody should underestimate how difficult that is and still stay in business. Personally, I don't believe that anybody who 'supports' CAMit ( and yes, I am one of those) wants to see Jabiru exposed to the possibility of being castrated as a business; we love the aircraft for the cost/efficiency of ownership, the good performance, the safety and the support we get. In my own case, I have family connections to the development of Jabs. from the first LSA55: I own airframe no #50 - the very first VH-registered Jabiru - and a family member has a record of flying it in his log-book when test-flying it in the development of the 2200J engine!. As a family, we have known and worked with Rod Stiff, Phil Ainsworth and Ian Bent from the very first days. And ALL of those remain as family friends (even though I have been on the receiving end of a Rod spray, as many have..).

 

CAMit has had the relative luxury (in a way) of having the facility, the expertise and the freedom to develop alternative solutions to Jab. engine problems. Don't underestimate for a moment the advantage of having an extremely high-tech manufacturing plant and the type of mind that looks at problems as a 'system' that needs to be changed from one end of its effects to the other - and being able to actually build, test, refine and re-test.the proposed solutions to a level of accuracy that is almost mind-boggling, over being the manufacturer who has to keep the entire business of a total aircraft manufacturing operation - in operation.. EVERY engine that comes out of the CAMit factory (whether it has a Jabiru plate or a CAMit-plate on it) is measured to an order of accuracy that is simply not achievable by hand, in conditions that are held at calibrated standards. EVERY engine is test-run on a dyno. The standards that apply to Jab.-spec engines is the minimum that CAMit applies to its own engines - as it should be.

 

Your point about the statistical questionability of a small sample, is absolutely fair. It was a massive failure on the part of CASA to NOT identify which particular Jab. engines had 'failures' in excess of others and apply a wholesale ban. Nobody should believe that there are NOT models of Lycontinentals - or Rotaxes, for that matter - that have a bad record. A massive part of the urban myth about the reliability (or unreliability) of Jabiru engines has been generated from a lack of understanding or analysis. Some of the contentions, such as the willfully ignorant but oft-repeated claim perpetrated by a person with such poor knowledge of metallurgy that it was laughable had it not contributed to the 'push' against Jabiru engines, that the billet-crankcase was the root of all evil, would have been laughed out of court by any sophisticated audience.

 

Seriously, I don't think that anybody who prefers the approach that CAMit has taken to improving the Jabiru engine - which amounts to a serious re-design of almost every component - should imply that they (alright - WE) - are in the business of trashing Jabiru. I am happy to fly behind any well-maintained and operated Jabiru engine; my own choice is to take on board CAMit's changes where I can do that. This is not a 'two-legs BAD, four legs GOOD' situation: I have researched and seen the nature of CAMit's developments, and I like them - but that does NOT mean that I repudiate Jabiru's efforts.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Just had some sad news hopefully it is not true. Camit looks like they may have closed their doors today

 

 

[jetjr]

If true that's a big problem for everyone, no parts or new engines from either company

 

This rumour has done the rounds a few weeks ago, from US.

 

I did see latest Jab engine on display with cast block and new barrels and heads, done just a few hrs.

 

 

[ave8rr]

If true that's a big problem for everyone, no parts or new engines from either companyThis rumour has done the rounds a few weeks ago, from US.

I did see latest Jab engine on display with cast block and new barrels and heads, done just a few hrs.

A Camit employee advises they were all layed off today.

 

 

[JohnC]

Just had some sad news hopefully it is not true. Camit looks like they may have closed their doors today

I was aware of some "restructuring" at Camit and the "here-say" circulating from the USA around July / August, however the only comment I can make is:-

 

"Do Not Believe Any Speculation, Rumors, Here-Say or Gossip, Wait For Camit To Officially Confirm Formally There Current Position And Their Intentions For Going Forward".

 

Camit have spent a significant amount of time, resources and money addressing the problems with the 2200 3300 engines and it is unlikely, in my opinion, they would walk away at this stage, unless other unknown circumstances exist.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

A Camit employee advises they were all layed off today.

Oh, that is bad news. That is terrible for them. And probably terrible for Jab as well, and all of us in recreational aviation here in Australia.

 

I guess that the next question then is where does everyone go from here?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I had a email from Ian Bent on Tuesday this week saying this friday wouldnt be a good day to visit but to ring next time I was up that way to arrange a meeting. Hopefully that means he will still be operating although on a much reduced capacity

 

 

[JohnC]

Dear all, may I reiterate to avoid unnecessary panic and "knee jerk reactions":-

 

"Do Not Believe Any Speculation, Rumors, Here-Say or Gossip. Wait For Camit To Officially Confirm Formally There Current Position And Their Intentions For Going Forward".

 

 

[Oscar]

I had a email from Ian Bent on Tuesday this week saying this friday wouldnt be a good day to visit but to ring next time I was up that way to arrange a meeting. Hopefully that means he will still be operating although on a much reduced capacity

Mark, if you have the chance to visit CAMit, please take it - even if the place is not in production, it is eye-popping for those who haven't seen it to realise just what is involved in producing a world-class aircraft engine. I have the happiest memories of spending nearly three weeks there, rebuilding my own Jab. engine with CAMit upgrades, surrounded by happy and proud workers who would stop massive machines just to show me (actually us, my co-owner and I were there doing that job together) the intricate machining processes involved in making those parts. The place was already starting to hum into operation at 0700, and gently wound down for the day at around 1700-1730. Absolutely anybody on the floor would take the time to not just answer our (sometimes, incredibly naive) questions, with not just a 'what', but a 'how' and 'why' response; show us how to use complex tools properly and check we'd really understood and learned, look after us to make sure the engine we went away with was as good as it could be. And when we strapped it into the test cell, it ran like a happy canary - and Ian Bent checked it out and stated that it was 'good'. That was due to the help we had at every step of the way - not our competence.

 

Both of us had built motor car racing engines, at the 'turn a production engine into a racing (or Rallye) engine' level. That included things like modifying production pistons to racing spec, welding up and re-machining ports and water cooling paths and re-machining them, static balancing, stress-relieving rods and valve gear.. the usual 'hot-rodding' level stuff. What we learned at CAMit was at an entirely higher level again. One starts to gain an appreciation of to what level of precision they operated, when two parts won't actually fit if they are not assembled at the same ambient temperature (one having just been taken from working on it, and attempting to fit it into another that has been settling for a day or so..) Then finding, that WHEN at the same ambient, they slide together with a push-fit!. Being taught when to use a formed thread rather than a cut thread. Using a light-box to check the finish of the edges of each individual compression ring for full seal all around the barrel. Checking our valve-seat lapping performance on a vacuum-gauge tester, rather than by eye for the seat finish - it went on and on. We learned so much in three weeks at Camit, that we were mentally exhausted at the end - it was like doing a full Cert IV course on engine building in three weeks!

 

The CAMit facility is, by any standards, world-class. In the comparable HP range / weight calculation, only Rotax has produced more engines. Walk through the CAMit factory and keep in mind that from here, an Australian company produced - for Jabiru and for itself respectively - thousands of engines for the world market. Rotax is a part of Bombadier: a multi-billion $$ turnover company. Rotax makes a vast number of engines, for a wide variety of markets: hell, even BMW put Rotax engines in their motorcycles!. Rotax engines are good engines - no question about that. I don't personally like the crankshaft manufacturing technique for the 9X series - but I DO accept that very few fail.

 

Mark - please visit CAMit, even if it's currently in suspension pending a re-organisation of its operation. The huge CNC machines may not be humming; the assembly shop may not be quietly putting together engines - but you will see the bones behind the manufacture of a damn good engine -not perfect, but then, what is?.

 

 

[gandalph]

A Camit employee advises they were all layed off today.

IF it is true, then there are many who should hang their head in shame. It would be a big step backward for Australiam aviation and manufacturing.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

IF it is true, then there are many who should hang their head in shame. It would be a big step backward for Australiam aviation and manufacturing.

I agree entirely about the backward step but disagree about hanging our heads in shame. I am confident that a significant part of this problem came from the Jariru engine debacle since that's where a lot of Camits income came from. I think many of this group ( myself included) wrote letters, made representations and did what we could to try to have casa see sense and change their ruling. I think of that we can be quite proud.

 

I'm sure there were multiple factors which have led to this outcome but those of which we as a group have had any ability to change were handled in a way we don't need to hang our heads.

 

 

[jetjr]

For sure CASA limitations had a massive impact however so did Jabiru in their handling of the problems over years

 

Now it appears their production may be shifting elsewhere no doubt cheaper

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Oscar

 

Actually I have 2 motives for visiting Camit. I have been importing, selling and fixing CNC milling machines for around 10 years (only small 3 and 4 axis) so I know what the tech is to make these engines and I have no doubt that the equipment at Camit is world class. The main reason is for a engine for my next aircraft I plan to build. 100hp is not going to be enough, They fly fine with 100 hp but I want a bit more grunt, 125 to 130 hp is around the mark I want. I have been researching many engines and also the Camit version is right up there on my list and being local certainly is a huge factor. I really hope it continues on. If I won the big lotto I would be putting money into the business to keep it going in one form or another as I love CNC tech and what I can produce.

 

I am not sure how much "outside" sort of CNC work he did but obviously not enough to keep the aircraft side operational. Its such a pity that this stupid country of ours can not push this type of manufacturing. WE make aerospace parts here for a lot of companies including the new dud JSF program.

 

The CNC community in the USA has been rebuilding big time even to the point now of a regular weekly TV show about Titan America CNC Machine Shop located in Northern California | Titan America MFG Look at this

 

I use Fusion 360 here as well it is stunning software. This guy has a passion for CNC that is incredible, has gone broke once or twice but now has started a manufacturing revolution in America.I really hope Ian's expertise survives and the business continues. The development and expertise of the guys that work for him surely can not be allowed to just disappear down a black hole.

 

Mark

 

 

[Jaba-who]

For sure CASA limitations had a massive impact however so did Jabiru in their handling of the problems over yearsNow it appears their production may be shifting elsewhere no doubt cheaper

I did know that camit ramped up their output capacity in the late 2000s. I understand Ian acquired more cnc mills then. Then came the gfc. That hit both jabiru and camit.

Whether in hindsight that was a good plan or not is a bit moot but it was done and regardless of the thought processes that lead to the ramping up camit paid dearly for that.

 

Some sources have intimated to me that that was the prime catastrophe that has been the major catalyst for the whole saga.

 

Big debt and less orders from jabiru due to gfc - lead to needing more work - lead to going into competition with the hand that feeds them - lead to antipathy from jabiru - lead to jabiru sourcing stuff from elsewhere ( at lower prices) -lead to less work for camit - lead to a self spiraling vortex to doom.

 

In some ways I suspect ( with no particular evidence just speculation) that the writing was actually in the wall before CASA but that was the straw that broke the camels back.

 

I still remain absolutely astounded that the jabiru vs camit situation even existed. I can imagine no other manufacturing industry where a contractor contracted to provide any finished product would be able to use the basic design of that company and make and sell a modified version of it in competition with the originator. Obviously was legal but I could imagine that most manufacturers in jabiru's position would have taken their orders and gone elsewhere as soon as camit even hinted at making a competitor engine.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Jaba

 

How do you know that back in the beginning that Ian and Camit did not design the original stuff on Jabiru's design criteria. Camit may very well own the original IP on the engine design

 

 

[gandalph]

I think many of this group ( myself included) wrote letters, made representations and did what we could to try to have casa see sense and change their ruling. I think of that we can be quite proud.

Absolutely! There are many who worked very hard to head this off and they, as you said, should be proud of their efforts. There is a much bigger back story here and this probably isn't the time or place to tell it.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Further to my post above.

 

Max Tedesco designed the Zenith CH-701 along with Chris Heintz although Max did most of it. Max wasnt happy with some aspects after a while and wanted to make some mods. Chris didnt want to and wanted to keep it the same so Max went away and designed the MX720 (or MX740 cant remember exactly). He built these in competition with Zenith although in Columbia. ICP then made them under licence and called them a Savannah and made some changes and they pretty much stole the design but have made many improvements to the versions we see today. So Jaba I am pretty sure none of us know the REAL story there so if there was no court action I dont believe there is anything to see at all in the comments about the IP

 

 

[ave8rr]

I agree entirely about the backward step but disagree about hanging our heads in shame. I am confident that a significant part of this problem came from the Jariru engine debacle since that's where a lot of Camits income came from. I think many of this group ( myself included) wrote letters, made representations and did what we could to try to have casa see sense and change their ruling. I think of that we can be quite proud.I'm sure there were multiple factors which have led to this outcome but those of which we as a group have had any ability to change were handled in a way we don't need to hang our heads.

I think the problems started when Rod started working on using foreign bits and pieces in his engine and wouldn't work with Ian to improve the existing Jab engine (Rod believed the engine was fine and that it was the way it was maintained causing the failures). Ian had ideas and worked to successfully improve the engines reliability and then started to sell the engine as a CAE badged unit.

 

I am told that there are about a 100 changes in the CAE from the Jab. Little things like loctite here or a washer there. Even the last few engines assembled by Camit for Jab were still mostly to the Jab Specifications. They would not or could not add the CAMIT changes.

 

I don't know how Jab are going to be able to supply parts for their existing engines that CAMIT have been making up until now. How long before Jab releases their new engine and what happens to those engines out there now when parts are required? Time will tell.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Further to my post above.Max Tedesco designed the Zenith CH-701 along with Chris Heintz although Max did most of it. Max wasnt happy with some aspects after a while and wanted to make some mods. Chris didnt want to and wanted to keep it the same so Max went away and designed the MX720 (or MX740 cant remember exactly). He built these in competition with Zenith although in Columbia. ICP then made them under licence and called them a Savannah and made some changes and they pretty much stole the design but have made many improvements to the versions we see today. So Jaba I am pretty sure none of us know the REAL story there so if there was no court action I dont believe there is anything to see at all in the comments about the IP

As I said it obviously must be legal so I am not suggesting anything is illegal.

Im saying I remain surprised that a company would continue to provide income for another company who has developed a direct competitor product from their product. ( and Rod Stiff was the main designer but I have no idea how much input every one else made)

 

My subtle point being that obviously there is much more to it than is available to us here. But none the less in remain astounded.