biggles Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 This could be a problem IF they are relying on CMIT for a supply of parts. They are sourcing their parts elsewhere ...... Bob
jetjr Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Don't like the sound of having to remove barrels every time there's a valve issue. Being able to swap a head out or send for repair was a nice feature Without CAE parts things look pretty grim for all owners of current engines 1 1
biggles Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Without CAE parts things look pretty grim for all owners of current engines Agree .... Bob 1
Oscar Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Don't like the sound of having to remove barrels every time there's a valve issue. Being able to swap a head out or send for repair was a nice featureWithout CAE parts things look pretty grim for all owners of current engines And removing barrels disturbs the crankcase seal. IF Jabiru uses the same Loctite seal methodology for the crankcases as in the present engines, this will prove to be a major problem, with seal breaking and crankcase fretting, and consequent loss of pre-tension on the through bolts - which now also hold the heads on, with four rather than five point attachment ( the earlier development 2210 engines needed several additional head bolts to maintain head sealing). .. CAMit moved to a different crankcase seal technique over three years ago. 1
ave8rr Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Agree .... Bob Bob, you said two posts above Jabiru were sourcing there parts elsewhere. My understanding is Camit were still manufacturing some 3300 parts for Jabiru. Crankshafts etc...
bexrbetter Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Yes but that's a whole new design, this one is new materials on existing design so not only retains certification but should be lots of problems already found. How the hell can you change materials and new techniques such as nikasil bores and now casting, and retain certification? You'll have to excuse me for calling nonsense on that one. 1
biggles Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Bob, you said two posts above Jabiru were sourcing there parts elsewhere.My understanding is Camit were still manufacturing some 3300 parts for Jabiru. Crankshafts etc... My information was gained in discussion with the Jab people at Narromine yesterday and during those discussions I was advised that they(Jabiru) were sourcing machined parts for their current engines elsewhere other than in Bundaberg. I accepted that on face value without question nor did I discuss the recent Camit issue with them, and know no more about that, than what is on these forums . If the rumours are in fact correct , then it's a sad day for us all, but perhaps not entirely unexpected ..... Bob
jetjr Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Maybe a bit of wishful thinking by Jabiru, the current engines are still made by CAE to Jab specs. Most talk was about the new engines with parts coming from elsewhere, but fact is they arent real yet 1
bexrbetter Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Most talk was about the new engines with parts coming from elsewhere, but fact is they arent real yet You may be right but damn, those parts pictured sure look final spec and out of production dies to me. 2
Kyle Communications Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 I was told quite a long time ago by a mate who does CNC stuff that he saw a engine being developed by Jabiru being made at a machine shop here in Brisbane. They were making the separate parts. But that was maybe 2 years ago
jetjr Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 It would be the same parts, Jab have been slowly replacing CAE parts for a while Jabiru complain about bitzer modified engines and if Camit aren't supplying anymore almost all will be except newest ones Yes they did look final and well done, hard part is anyone buying a new engine will now wait. From what was said I got the impression there are only one of these engines ever built and running. One pictured for just a few hrs. Long way to go in my eyes. Some parts have done more.
Jaba-who Posted October 9, 2016 Author Posted October 9, 2016 It would be the same parts, Jab have been slowly replacing CAE parts for a whileJabiru complain about bitzer modified engines and if Camit aren't supplying anymore almost all will be except newest ones Yes they did look final and well done, hard part is anyone buying a new engine will now wait. From what was said I got the impression there are only one of these engines ever built and running. One pictured for just a few hrs. Long way to go in my eyes. Some parts have done more. I was at a meeting a few weeks back where rod stiff spoke about the new engines and he said the new engine or one of the new engines had been on a test bed run at full revs for 3 days non stop ( except for refuels and stops to do the required maintenance due to the hours clocking up) and another ( or perhaps same one at different time I don't recall which) had several hundred hours in flight in an airframe. Several staff had sore butts from flying all day every day!
jetjr Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 I was at a meeting a few weeks back where rod stiff spoke about the new engines and he said the new engine or one of the new engines had been on a test bed run at full revs for 3 days non stop ( except for refuels and stops to do the required maintenance due to the hours clocking up) and another ( or perhaps same one at different time I don't recall which) had several hundred hours in flight in an airframe. Several staff had sore butts from flying all day every day! yes correct but theres several versions of the "new" 2210 engine, one in aircraft has machined case and ran a couple of versions of bolted heads for some time, Done 300hrs total I think over couple of years now. Not sure what version the one test cell has, assume its latest cast block with cast, screwed heads. - but its done 1000hrs as you indicate Other in aircraft at Narromine had around 10 hrs at the time.
gandalph Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Test bed or test cell? I may be being pedantic but there is a significant difference between being run at full revs for 3 days on a test bed and being run run through a documented certification test regime in a fully instrumented test cell. I seem to recall that Oscar has some knowledge about test requirements in a test cell and may have posted about those differences here earlier. I am only aware of one fully instrumented test cell for this class of engine in Qld. There may be others that I don't know of but I don't believe that Jabiru has been using that one.
Gnarly Gnu Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 ...one of the new engines had been on a test bed run at full revs for 3 days non stop ( except for refuels and stops to do the required maintenance due to the hours clocking up) Pausing for maintenance due to the hours clocked up in three days? Also the flight testing should tell them they need to design better seats. The base is not so comfortable.
Jabiru Phil Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Agree .... Bob Cam it website today. A response to recent rumours August 17, 2016 • CAMit Update A few rumours have been circulating recently, to different effects: that CAMit is about to close its doors, that we have already laid off employees, and more. We want to address these rumours and mention that they are not true. One of the questions asked just last night on the Jabiru & CAMit Aircraft Engines Yahoo! group* was this: A couple of weeks ago at Oshkosh, a high ranking official of Jabiru USA told me that Camit was about to close their doors, employees had already been laid... Read more → 1
Kyle Communications Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 That was back in August 17 almost 2 months ago 1
bexrbetter Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 I got an email 3 days ago from a Mate, parts of ... There were rumors that they were in financial difficulty - it depends on how much of their gear they owned and how much the bank owned....... In their hey-day, they made 90 Jabiru badged engines / month - down to 9 or 10 more recently - plus a couple a month of their own brand. Still sad to see but the blame falls squarely on Jabiru - who just didn't develop their design. To give you an idea - there are 3 guys in my SAAA chapter with Jab's ( 2200 & 3300 ) - all very experienced pilots - and not one had their engines go past 150 hrs without a top end rebuild - that is bl00dy hopeless. A mate of mine in Bundy who is a pilot as well. His next door neighbour assembled the engines. He was layed off on friday and so were the rest of the staff Jab has just shown their “new” engine at Ozkosh this weekend. Apparently will be in production late this year and the 6 cyc early next year. Jab will be machining their own castings for the blocks and heads have nikasil bore sleeves
coljones Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Pausing for maintenance due to the hours clocked up in three days?Also the flight testing should tell them they need to design better seats. The base is not so comfortable. 3 days is 72 hours.
jetjr Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 3 days is 72 hours. Yeah I think the engine ran for 30+ days not 3 1
Oscar Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 The ASTM certifying requirements specifies 200 hours of testing, in runs of (mostly) 2-hour blocks, that have phases of operation designed to provide the same stresses that happen in real life - including idling, full-power running, 75% power running, power-back running. This simulates not just the reciprocating stresses but also thermal changes - heating and cooling. There are also 'limit' tests by which the manufacturer sets the operational limits (to less than the test performance), plus tear-down inspections etc.
coljones Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Yeah I think the engine ran for 30+ days not 3 30+ days is more than 700 hours except that they need stop the engine to do some maintenance and measurements on a periodical basis. Some were surprised that you might stop and do maintenance after only 3 days (in excess of 70 hours). I am sure even a Camit or Rotax would also need that.
jetjr Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 yes new oil and filter at every 25 hrs, plus a couple of extras at the start.
Jaba-who Posted October 10, 2016 Author Posted October 10, 2016 I vaguely recall him mentioning the longer time. ( maybe it was 1000 hours I don't recall) the bit that I do recall was in whatever time they ran it for at whatever revs to satisfy the rules Rod Stiff definitely said they had a period where they ran it full open throttle for 3 Days. So I am left to surmise given the info added by others then it was probably much more with variable amounts but for some of it it was flat bikkies for 3 days. Bex - as I have said jabiru did develop their design. Just that their designs were in a different direct to Camits. As I said when I was given a list of changes in development made jabirus exceeded Camits changes in design. Always a bit faulty to look only at a small number in a small area as an indication of anything. We have about a dozen jabiru engines in our Area. i don't know of any of them that has had major problems early. Yep - One threw a valve and had a stoppage but at over 600 hours but the owner had been running it fairly hot for quite some time ( years). Others have run right up to the top end TBO. 1
bexrbetter Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Always a bit faulty to look only at a small number in a small area as an indication of anything. We have about a dozen jabiru engines in our Area. i don't know of any of them that has had major problems early. Bit of a contradiction there stating that someone else's small example is not relevant while your similarly small example is. I was actually born with one eye, what's your excuse?
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