Getting the shytes

[Russ]

After prolonged tooing and froing, we decided to buy a jab160.....sourced a beauty, it was a 160C, but now down the track some 7 mths and loving the actual machine, I,m now getting a tad peed off.

 

Any change/add on....whatever, no matter how minor......you hit a brick wall, sorry Russ, you can not do it. Example.....the current elec flap switch is located in an awkward place.....in my view, I wanted to install a 2nd switch top LH area of the dash.....just to the right of the throttle rod, plenty of room there, that would allow my right hand to stay holding the joy stick ( love the term joy ) whilst left hand easily manipulated throttle and the flap switch.........once again Bundy says sorry mate you can,t do.

 

Just this week I decided to fit a auto pilot, rang Bundy, no probs Russ, we fit them easy as.....bewdy I will drop in get it done......then get a oooops, sorry mate can,t do, your machine is type certified. To do it you will have to get a 35 type certifier to sign it off.......and that,s going to cost you heaps.

 

So my love affair is bit by bit getting chilly.......Grrrrrrrrr

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea mate. Cant touch it. It sucks, but I think you have the ony type certified Jab model. (may be wrong)

 

 

[Oscar]

Russ, a Part 21 engineer can do this for you, though you may have to use a TSO'd device ( though I'm no expert). However, I believe that RAA is examining the whole 'who can authorise mods.' thing and there may be some changes in the not too distant future.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Yea mate. Cant touch it. It sucks, but I think you have the ony type certified Jab model. (may be wrong)

Merv,

I "think" the 120s as well.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Change its registration to "19" and do what you think is best?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

You cant do that

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

After prolonged tooing and froing, we decided to buy a jab160.....sourced a beauty, it was a 160C, but now down the track some 7 mths and loving the actual machine, I,m now getting a tad peed off.Any change/add on....whatever, no matter how minor......you hit a brick wall, sorry Russ, you can not do it. Example.....the current elec flap switch is located in an awkward place.....in my view, I wanted to install a 2nd switch top LH area of the dash.....just to the right of the throttle rod, plenty of room there, that would allow my right hand to stay holding the joy stick ( love the term joy ) whilst left hand easily manipulated throttle and the flap switch.........once again Bundy says sorry mate you can,t do.

Just this week I decided to fit a auto pilot, rang Bundy, no probs Russ, we fit them easy as.....bewdy I will drop in get it done......then get a oooops, sorry mate can,t do, your machine is type certified. To do it you will have to get a 35 type certifier to sign it off.......and that,s going to cost you heaps.

 

So my love affair is bit by bit getting chilly.......Grrrrrrrrr

Under LSA, only the manufacturer can Approve mods. Under any other certification category, a Part 21M person must Approve it. As applied by CASA, Part 21M is almost useless, and most of the CAR 35s (old reg for mods) have retired / pissed off. CASA have successfully nearly exterminated the modification & non-standard repair industry in this country. Because CASA do not understand the relationship between engineering, airworthiness, certification, and safety.

 

 

[Russ]

Update......this afternoon spoke with Bundy, again, personable lady Lee, ( bosses daughter), the tone etc re my grype, is now positive, just maybe....maybe, we can get auto pilot installed all legit. I pressed for composite prop as well, let,s see.

 

So......things look a little brighter now, but it,s not definite.

 

You put a 160C alongside a 160D, I defy anyone to pick the difference, so why the shyte.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Update......this afternoon spoke with Bundy, again, personable lady Lee, ( bosses daughter), the tone etc re my grype, is now positive, just maybe....maybe, we can get auto pilot installed all legit. I pressed for composite prop as well, let,s see.So......things look a little brighter now, but it,s not definite.

You put a 160C alongside a 160D, I defy anyone to pick the difference, so why the shyte.

LOGIC??? what's logic got to do with certification???

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Under LSA, only the manufacturer can Approve mods. Under any other certification category, a Part 21M person must Approve it. As applied by CASA, Part 21M is almost useless, and most of the CAR 35s (old reg for mods) have retired / pissed off. CASA have successfully nearly exterminated the modification & non-standard repair industry in this country. Because CASA do not understand the relationship between engineering, airworthiness, certification, and safety.

I don't see why anybody should consider that post funny; it's dead right.

For the benefit of the deadheads on this Forum, and for about the fifth time, you can discover which Jabiru models are Type certificated by CASA (and look up the serial numbers) by looking up Australian Type Certificates on the CASA website, www.casa.gov.au. ALL jabiru models up to the J 160 C were Type Certificated. This information is in the public domain, so there's no excuse for guessing about it.

 

The difference between a J160 C and a J 160 D is that the former is manufactured under CASR Part 21 subpart G (i.e. a Production Certificate) for which a TC is a prerequisite; and as such it's eligible for a normal Certificate of Airworthiness (if VH registered) - which means its C of A is recognised in any ICAO signatory country; whereas the J160D is manufactured under the LSA rules, so it does not have a TC, the "certification" is from the manufacturer only, not from CASA, and as such it's only eligible for a "special" C of A (i.e. valid only in Australia). The 160D can only be modified with Jabiru's permission. The 160C does not require Jabiru's permission.

 

 

[Camel]

Under LSA, only the manufacturer can Approve mods. Under any other certification category, a Part 21M person must Approve it. As applied by CASA, Part 21M is almost useless, and most of the CAR 35s (old reg for mods) have retired / pissed off. CASA have successfully nearly exterminated the modification & non-standard repair industry in this country. Because CASA do not understand the relationship between engineering, airworthiness, certification, and safety.

It is very funny, because it is true what you say and Casa is making things dangerous instead of considering safety. The name says it all " Civil Aviation Safety Authority " , authority on what ?

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

It is very funny, because it is true what you say and Casa is making things dangerous instead of considering safety. The name says it all " Civil Aviation Safety Authority " , authority on what ?

Authority on maintaining a Civil Aviation Safety Authority as required by ICAO to allow VH- aircraft to fly internationally. So wtf do they have to do with Recreational, Aerial Ag? Justify their existence - and it looks good to journos; if the "Safety Authority" is buggering around with, say, Ultralighting, then it must be safer because of it?

 

 

[Ultralights]

Blame CASA....

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Blame CASA....

Ive met a couple of heads of Certification, and of Ongoing Airworthiness, and at least one Powerplants, and an Acting Director, a Director, and a Deputy Director, and a head of Legal Services, and most of Engineering Services when it existed - all in a professional capacity - and I find a great deal to blame in CASA. I find more to blame in various Ministers for Aviation, and those with Aviation in their portfolio. And the AAT has degenerated from its original high ideals...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Sorta makesyawanna take a few of these peckerheads out to the bush and give them thirty minutes head start.

 

 

[nong]

After prolonged tooing and froing, we decided to buy a jab160.....sourced a beauty, it was a 160C, but now down the track some 7 mths and loving the actual machine, I,m now getting a tad peed off.Any change/add on....whatever, no matter how minor......you hit a brick wall, sorry Russ, you can not do it. Example.....the current elec flap switch is located in an awkward place.....in my view, I wanted to install a 2nd switch top LH area of the dash.....just to the right of the throttle rod, plenty of room there, that would allow my right hand to stay holding the joy stick ( love the term joy ) whilst left hand easily manipulated throttle and the flap switch.........once again Bundy says sorry mate you can,t do.

Just this week I decided to fit a auto pilot, rang Bundy, no probs Russ, we fit them easy as.....bewdy I will drop in get it done......then get a oooops, sorry mate can,t do, your machine is type certified. To do it you will have to get a 35 type certifier to sign it off.......and that,s going to cost you heaps.

 

So my love affair is bit by bit getting chilly.......Grrrrrrrrr

I don't think you have anything to whinge about, Russ. It was YOU who chose to buy a J160C. There are plenty of J160's available, so why didn't you buy one of those?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

That's why you buy or build a 19 registered aircraft..can do what you like and when you like to them

 

 

[Russ]

I don't think you have anything to whinge about, Russ. It was YOU who chose to buy a J160C. There are plenty of J160's available, so why didn't you buy one of those?

Absolutely love me 160, I failed to fully investigate the implications of the "C" bit. Seeking a "certified aircraft " was the strong influence in the decision making I must admit, as this was a demand to get it approved to operate Philippines. ( factory built/certified, was the requirement ) 2 yrs of frustrating tooing and froing to get my gyro approved to operate there, just got too hard, I just kept banging my head on a rock wall, so jabiru it was.

 

The inflexable rules for the most minor changes to a "C" are annoying. ( 2nd elec flap switch for example , and auto pilot as fitted to a "D". )

 

Enough misery talk...... Moving on....

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

It is very funny, because it is true what you say and Casa is making things dangerous instead of considering safety. The name says it all " Civil Aviation Safety Authority " , authority on what ?

What CASA is doing, is protecting its liability under S8.2 of the Civil Aviation Act 1988. Unlike the FAA (and all other National Airworthiness Authorities of which I am aware), CASA can be sued; S8.2 of the Act says so in words of one syllable. So CASA is seeking to reduce its vicarious liability for the design approvals made by Authorised Persons in the industry, by eliminating them. The first step was to close CAR 35 and replace it with CASR 21.M, which limits the scope of these people to minor modifications, and vastly increases the paperwork involved - and hence the cost. It also increased the liability exposure of the APs; so naturally the cost of an approval went up by almost an order of magnitude. It will get worse; within about three years, CASR 21.M individuals will have to become CASR 21.J Design Organisations (this is the EASA model).

These changes are also a consequence of the policy of "following World's best practice" - which means, in effect, avoiding any necessity to think about what works best for Australia. The CAR 35 system was unique to Australia; but the "Cringe Australia" policy has prevailed yet again.

 

So, if you want to tinker with the thing, starting with an LSA aircraft is about the worst choice; and a certificated aircraft is getting to be the next worst choice - tho it was not always so. Starting with a certificated aircraft is by far the safest choice, however. If you start with a -19 aircraft, you are starting from something that has not been proven to comply with ANY safety standard whatsoever. Caveat Emptor.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Then 19- is the only logical way to go. This puts the responsibility exactly were it belongs. The owner/pilot. With CASA setting the height of the bar with only one thing in mind, to only protect there own ass who would want to trust CASA with ones own safety.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Provided you know what you're doing, yes.

 

 

[Camel]

The only problem with 19 reg for me is,

 

No flying over built up areas and no controlled airspace, I have a PPL and for me it would be better to build and reg GA experimental and that would not eliminate built up or control and could allow NVFR as well, not that I want to fly at night but allows early start or late finish, my thoughts anyhow but I don't know if I have the time and patience to build a plane. If I did build I would like an amphibian.

 

 

[jetjr]

As far as im aware a PPL can fly a 19 red aircraft into controlled airspace

 

Has to have transponder of course and approved engine type

 

 

[SDQDI]

As far as im aware a PPL can fly a 19 red aircraft into controlled airspaceHas to have transponder of course and approved engine type

That seems to differ from my understanding of it I didn't think 19reg was allowed in controlled airspace unless a specific exemption was given no matter if you had a ppl or not. But I'm not overly sure but that seemed to be the gist I got from the latest sport pilot mag

 

 

[Camel]

RAA use to give exemptions but that stopped years ago, 19 can not fly over built up areas or use controlled airspace unless it has an exemption which they do not issue anymore.