Old Bar "Dreamcatcher" report leaked

[turboplanner]

You're talking about the past FH ;as was pointed out to me once when I was running calculations for a truck and couldn't get the loading correct without burning off some fuel: "from the SECOND that truck drives out of the gates, you are responsible for it's dynamic safety for life."

 

I didn't have a problem with that because there are audit and compliance regimes in place to ensure that what I signed off is complied with.

 

The point I'm making FH is that RAA doesn't have those, so right now the thin blue line is the Instructor, or ceasing the activity....... or the people responsible for the self administration might like to close this gap the same as other organisations and other companies already have.

 

 

[facthunter]

People are not predictable as much as many would wish. Stability of vehicles etc is a matter of NUMBERS as is W&B and it is either right or wrong. In the RAAus those who walk in the gate decide they want to fly or not. Some of them are not going to make the worlds best pilots. A pilot has to present to fly in a fit condition to do so. ( No medication/alcohol /drug problems and rested and not stressed or suffering a mental condition etc). How he/she makes a judgement is a different matter, and is the essence of managing a developing situation in the air. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Don't disagree with the complicated situation which has to be managed, but I managed it 30 years ago so time to get off your bum.

 

 

[kgwilson]

It's also correct to say that if the pilot had used the duty runway like the Diamond did it would not have happened, and this becomes a contributing factor.

And that opens the issue up to question the aircraft's flightpath."

At an ALA or uncontrolled aerodrome there is often a 'Runway in Use" not a "duty runway" generally determined by the wind direction when joining overhead and what has been heard on the radio from the 10 mile out point. If, when flying overhead the pilot sees a limp windsock and/or did not hear or remember what the previous pilots intentions were it is then that pilots decision which runway to land on.

One thing I often do is ask what is the current runway in use is & generally anyone in the circuit will respond. In this case there was nothing else in the circuit & the aircraft on the ground would have had their radios turned off so there would be no point in asking.

 

He didn't see the Ferris wheel at any time so his decision to land where he did had nothing to do with anything other than an object being placed in the flightpath that should not have been there. How the choice of runway in a nil wind situation could be seen as an issue to question the aircrafts flightpath is beyond me.

 

 

[turboplanner]

At an ALA or uncontrolled aerodrome there is often a 'Runway in Use" not a "duty runway" generally determined by the wind direction when joining overhead and what has been heard on the radio from the 10 mile out point. If, when flying overhead the pilot sees a limp windsock and/or did not hear or remember what the previous pilots intentions were it is then that pilots decision which runway to land on.One thing I often do is ask what is the current runway in use is & generally anyone in the circuit will respond. In this case there was nothing else in the circuit & the aircraft on the ground would have had their radios turned off so there would be no point in asking.

 

He didn't see the Ferris wheel at any time so his decision to land where he did had nothing to do with anything other than an object being placed in the flightpath that should not have been there. How the choice of runway in a nil wind situation could be seen as an issue to question the aircrafts flightpath is beyond me.

If that's what had happened, and he had obtained a similar weather forecast from Taree, I would agree with you, but that's not what the ATSB found. They go into a lot more detail.

 

 

[dodo]

ATSB noted all other pilots used the opposite direction, but they noted that in one case the pilots decision was based on which way the windsock fell across the supporting pole, so they didn't seem to be too fussed - I can't remember whether ATSB called it a duty runway - there may not have been enough traffic to establish a duty runway (I don't think ATSB felt that was a significant point).

 

While it made a big difference to the outcome, I don't know whether choice of runway was bad - more that ATSB were interested in his decision mking on these sorts of points, which is fair.

 

dodo

 

dodo

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's hat they found Dodo, not what they said - they were too busy taking shots at CASA.

 

 

[dodo]

Do you think anything will come of it? The safety issues identified were RA and the FTF for training, Councils and committees for airfield, so won't it just fade away?

 

Any systemic issues that appeared were not listed as requiring action.

 

I suspect that the footsoldiers will suffer, and everyone else will move on

 

dodo.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Since no one was badly injured, I think you're right.

 

 

[Captain]

Perhaps the Human Factors syllabus will now be extended to cover "Get-Ferris-Wheel-Itis" plus Pilot Decision-making when near the seductive dangers of Fairy Floss & Clowns.

 

 

[M61A1]

Perhaps the Human Factors syllabus will now be extended to cover "Get-Ferris-Wheel-Itis" plus Pilot Decision-making when near the seductive dangers of Fairy Floss & Clowns.

Perhaps legislation requiring all RAA aircraft to be fitted with heads up displays, to keep eyes out of the cockpit and watching where they're going, wil be next on the agenda.

 

 

[coljones]

Perhaps legislation requiring all RAA aircraft to be fitted with heads up displays, to keep eyes out of the cockpit and watching where they're going, wil be next on the agenda.

In quite a lot of RAA planes, on take off, it is difficult to see straight ahead, because of the pitch of the nose. This is why we have splays on strips so that accidental drift and small direction changes don't have big impacts. A heads up display wouldn't help much but not putting a ferris wheel in the splay area would help a lot.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Climb angle visibility is also an issue on all of the GA aircraft I fly. You have to be visually vigilant on the climb out phase. Splays must be clear of obstructions.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Perhaps legislation requiring all RAA aircraft to be fitted with heads up displays, to keep eyes out of the cockpit and watching where they're going, wil be next on the agenda.

My T-300 has a HUDS! Well, the engine instruments are on the roof (other than that, it's not much like a Super Connie...)

Can we all get real? Fit all ultralights with 2.75" FFARs (missiles), and just blast illegally parked ferris wheels into the next dimension... so obvious...

 

 

[M61A1]

My T-300 has a HUDS! Well, the engine instruments are on the roof (other than that, it's not much like a Super Connie...) Can we all get real? Fit all ultralights with 2.75" FFARs (missiles), and just blast illegally parked ferris wheels into the next dimension... so obvious...

So long as the FFAR's have flechette warheads, you know, for clearing crowds.....erm foliage.

 

 

[Downunder]

Add to "go around" checklist......look for and avoid ferris wheel.........

 

 

[Oscar]

Add to checklist: LOOK at the damn landing site, recognise potential hazards, and plan accordingly?

 

 

[facthunter]

I think a lot of people would perceive the situation in their own way. When concentration is at a maximum, a certain amount of tunnel vision happens. Saying it wouldn't happen to me, is not unusual, but no guarantee it won't. Nev

 

 

[dodo]

Add to checklist: LOOK at the damn landing site, recognise potential hazards, and plan accordingly?

Most of us were trained to do that on any landing, but especially if it isn't a local flight. It doesn't mean you will see a Ferris wheel, amongst the other odd stuff going on a festival - it would have been in the middle of a pile of amusements,

dodo

 

 

[turboplanner]

One of the new road safety issues is where drivers of cars and trucks, talking hands free on mobile phones do not see stationary cars in front of them or an array of red lights at an intersection and are involved in full speed collisions with devastating results

 

 

[dodo]

One of the new road safety issues is where drivers of cars and trucks, talking hands free on mobile phones do not see stationary cars in front of them or an array of red lights at an intersection and are involved in full speed collisions with devastating results

I don't think there is any question of the pilot being distracted, or otherwise inattentive in this case.

But I agree that it can be devastating,

 

dodo

 

 

[metalman]

One of the new road safety issues is where drivers of cars and trucks, talking hands free on mobile phones do not see stationary cars in front of them or an array of red lights at an intersection and are involved in full speed collisions with devastating results

Are you on the TAC payroll? What's next ,ban UHF, radios, hands free phones, GPS, the nanny state attitude is getting out of hand in this country and mobs like the TAC are at the forefront ,latest invasion is a camera the can detect if your eating from neary a kilometre away WTF! I've had my house vandalised several times ,the day care centre across the road was destroyed recently and our Main Street is burnout city,,,but the cops are busy looking for people snacking in there cars,,,that has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with revenue! The TAC tried to get the coppers here to start booking for ONE km over the limit,,,even the cops thought it was ridiculous and refused to do it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Metalman, I am not on the TAC payroll, but I can tell you that when a B Double travelling at 100 km/hr hits a little Laser with someone's wife and two children with turn indicator on and the little kids looking across at their friends in the schoolyard, the result is that the car and the bodies are in little pieces and the family is no more.

 

No one is dying because they were travelling 1 km over the limit and no one is imposing that level of penalties. Maybe TAC thought about it but obviously they were run over by more skilled people who are currently discussing why we are focused on speed limits anyway.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

No one is dying because they were travelling 1 km over the limit and no one is imposing that level of penalties.

Maybe not in VIC? Welcome to South Australia where you can get done for just 1kph - here's your fine.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oops, I remember now, had a V8 Ute and you could easily identify it because there was always a motorcycle cop attached to the rear. I had more motorcycle outriders than the Governor.