Circular wing

[gimballock]

Yes, I've read most of what you've said, David and I have no doubt that it's all 100% true. It's sad that a genius like Scotty has not been recognised as the genius he was.

 

However, I'm interested in the circular form of flying wing and curious to know if their lack of success is purely aesthetic or is there a serious technical issue that precludes them from regular use.

 

(Just like the VHS vs Beta video cassette, VHS won but all accounts are that Beta was actually better! Maybe we should all be flying around in pancake-shaped aircraft!)

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I've only heard good things about circular winged aircraft and there have been a few over the years.

They seem to attract a lot of interest but people don't seem to actually want them.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Think how much fun you could have in one of them at night with a silenced engine, playing loud spooky music and sequentially switching LEDs around the edge of the circular wing. Imagine the news the next day ...ROFLMAO (oh behave David)

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

And how do we know he is not already doing it ???.........lol

 

 

[turboplanner]

How do you know I'm not?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Think how much fun you could have in one of them at night with a silenced engine, playing loud spooky music and sequentially switching LEDs around the edge of the circular wing. Imagine the news the next day ...

... "Pilot 'having fun' gets shot down"

 

 

[rgmwa]

"Flying Saucer Shock - Captured Alien Appears Human!! "

 

 

[Guernsey]

Captured Alien? Could it be Turboplanner.? .

 

 

[gimballock]

Like the line from "Back to the Future" when he steps out if the De Lorian in the barn in the Radiation Suit & takes off the helmet....

 

"Look! He's already mutated into human form! Shoot it!"

 

"Take this, you mutated son-of-a-bitch!"

 

*BOOM*

 

 

[bexrbetter]

[gimballock]

BREAKING NEWS!

 

I made contact with David Rowe!

 

I had a good chat with him and he was most obliging with information.

 

He said that, as you know, efficiency of a wing drops off with aspect ratio, but then, at a certain point, it sharply rises again!

 

He says that when the aspect ratio hits approximately 1.25, it is almost the same as an aspect ratio of 6.

 

The aspect ratio of a complete circle is approximately 1.27, and so, with some added aerofoil at the rear, it is approximately 1.25.

 

It doesn't actually stall, so much as it mushes.

 

He didn't recall the actual point at which this happens knotswise.

 

Power-out, it glides slightly better than a Drifter.

 

It is very stable and flies quite well.

 

It lands quite short. (He often lands it in the driveway of many farms out where he lives.)

 

It's a standard aerofoil with a reflex (as all flying wings/tailless aircraft are.)

 

The model glider he built had a Centre of Pressure at about 33% but on the full-scale model that proved unstable, so it was best placed at about 25%.

 

As mentioned here before, the high undercarriage was due to the rotation angle and the need to avoid scraping your tail on the ground.

 

Also, he said that the seating arrangement was purely due to the fact that he sits, basically, on top of the wing.

 

He said that it's actually quite uncomfortable, so flights of more than an hour are not advised in this current model.

 

I told him of the interest in low-aspect ratio aircraft on both here and homebuiltairplanes.com.

 

I urged him to get onto this site as his knowledge would be invaluable - a person with first-hand experience is worth a thousand "internet armchair experts."

 

Sadly, he doesn't frequent the internet very much, so isn't interested in getting on this site.

 

He did, however, invite me to keep in contact and said that I am welcome to call any time I have questions.

 

 

[rotax618]

I have found using models that an inverse zimmerman planform has a better L/D than a circle.

 

 

[rotax618]

The attached is a sketch of a possible low aspect simple aircraft. I placed the pilot below the wing to address the access, visibility and undercarriage length problems associated with this planform. I admit that it would be better looking and more efficient to sit in the wing, with transparent floor and retract U/C.

 

 

[gimballock]

The attached is a sketch of a possible low aspect simple aircraft. I placed the pilot below the wing to address the access, visibility and undercarriage length problems associated with this planform. I admit that it would be better looking and more efficient to sit in the wing, with transparent floor and retract U/C.

Yes, I recall that you said that you prefer the "Inverse Zimmerman" planform.

 

Rowe's aircraft is *almost* an Inverse Zimmerman, but looking at the fly-by on the video, it's equally clipped at the front as well as the back.

 

Have you considered building a full-scale version of this?

 

I'd love to see any experimental aircraft of these kinds actually built and flown.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It's a standard aerofoil with a reflex (as all flying wings/tailless aircraft are.)

.

What "standard" airfoil is it and what does "reflex" mean relative please?

 

Thanks for going to this effort as well!

 

I have found using models that an inverse zimmerman planform has a better L/D than a circle.I placed the pilot below the wing to address the access, visibility and undercarriage length problems associated with this planform.]

That looks terrific and I was actually going to ask why every flying wing I see has the fuse on top, yours seems much more logical layout.

 

Why would you not fold the wing ends down on that?

 

 

[gimballock]

What "standard" airfoil is it and what does "reflex" mean relative please?

By "standard aerofoil", I meant that it was simply one "out of the book" (i.e. one of the tried and true aerofoils used commonly) but he was unable to remember exactly which one when I was talking to him.

 

A reflex is an upward curl at the trailing edge instead of downwards as per most regular wings on non-tailless designs.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Thank you.

 

You might enjoy this Gimballock ..

 

http://www3.nd.edu/~mav/auvsi/torres.htm

 

 

[rotax618]

To see the sketch can be viewed by clicking the thumbnail on my previous post. I would need to build and fly more larger scale models of the concept, alas I am limited by my health these days.

 

 

[gimballock]

Thank you.You might enjoy this Gimballock ..

 

http://www3.nd.edu/~mav/auvsi/torres.htm

Thanks, Bex.

Yes, the page is most interesting!

 

 

[gimballock]

To see the sketch can be viewed by clicking the thumbnail on my previous post. I would need to build and fly more larger scale models of the concept, alas I am limited by my health these days.

Sorry to hear that your health is a problem, Rotax. That's a fear that we all live with.

 

Where are you located?

 

 

[gimballock]

To see the sketch can be viewed by clicking the thumbnail on my previous post. I would need to build and fly more larger scale models of the concept, alas I am limited by my health these days.

Your design looks a lot like the Sukhanov Discoplane:

 

I think that this design has it merits.

 

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Your design looks a lot like the Sukhanov Discoplane

If you type in Discoplan rather than Discoplane into Google you will reap far greater rewards ....

 

 

[gimballock]

If you type in Discoplan rather than Discoplane into Google you will reap far greater rewards ....

That is a great tip! Thank you very much!

 

(And here I was thinking that I'm good at foreign languages! Das macht mich stink sauer!)

 

:)

 

 

[gimballock]

This is closer to the idea of a circular wing that I am thinking of...

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I came across this just now too, I'm not actually searching for them believe it or not, pure luck!

 

http://www.twitt.org/debpelican.htm

 

Oh I just noticed that's also on the Twitt site, full circle!

 

Here's your winner Gimballock ..

 

http://www.retroplane.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3787&start=15