INCIDENT/ACCIDENT REPORTS

[turboplanner]

We've recently seen posts which indicate some pilots are not aware of their obligations under the Civil Aviation Regulations and other government legislation which can carry some heavy fines and potential prison sentences for contravention.

 

CASA and its predecessors have always preferred that pilots educate themselves in the legislation which has been laid down over a trail of blood over about a century of flight.

 

In that respect, you may not realise that provided you report an incident or accident you have protection from prosecution - which recognises you are unlikely to make the same mistake twice.

 

The exact details, terms and conditions of the exemption (particularly that you only get one every five years) are shown on this link and the legislation it refers to: http://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/asrs.aspx

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Crikey Turbs, they might be swamped with stories!

 

 

[turboplanner]

You'd hope they would be then CASA could send them on to RAA and RAA could adjust training to cover the most frequent issus.

 

However, you that you can only report on your own transgressions - this report is not the incident report you send when someone has come screaming in from your left reading a newspaper.

 

 

[SDQDI]

So am I correct in reading this turbs that its not so much incidents and accidents (which do need reporting to RAA and atsb within 48 hrs) but rather contraventions of the law?? Which of course could involve an incident or accident but maybe could be something which we wouldn't think of as being an incident

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

What is the attraction of the crash comics? Am I peverse in going straight to Accidents and Incidents, or is a healthy thing to learn from others' stuff-ups?

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is contraventions of the law (but read the section of the Act mentioned above which will be reasonably short rather than taking my definition)

 

For example, if you were flying a Lightwing and had a fuel exhaustion just out of Miles, and you landed on the highway then pushed, rolled, towed it into the service station and refuelled, you would report it since you had an obligation to calculate fuel burn, in case on the the excited tourists plastered a big photo of it complete with registration number right in the restaurant where hordes of CASA employees dropped in for a coffee on their way to Roma.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So am I correct in reading this turbs that its not so much incidents and accidents (which do need reporting to RAA and atsb within 48 hrs) but rather contraventions of the law?? Which of course could involve an incident or accident but maybe could be something which we wouldn't think of as being an incident

Sorry SDQDI stuffed up the quote - your answer is above

 

 

[turboplanner]

What is the attraction of the crash comics? Am I peverse in going straight to Accidents and Incidents, or is a healthy thing to learn from others' stuff-ups?

It can become depressing when you read a batch now and then, but I was taught that flying is very safe, but totally unforgiving of a mistake, and it's great to learn from other people's mistakes rather than your own.

 

Some of the things I've picked up:

 

• Don't pull tight turns, the angle of attack is coming from the outside of the turn and you are greatly increasing AoA; it only needs a wind buffet and you, now almost sideways are just as likely to drop into a spin.
   
   
  
• Don't beat up airfields; they have wires and sometimes radio masts.
   
   
  
• After parking in a paddock to visit friends, check no dents or frozen controls from cattle
   
   
  
• On a day with very low cloud don't rely on the lowest colour on the map - that goes to 600 feet
   
   
  
• and so on.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[storchy neil]

turbs it does not work reported lame l2 l3 to casa I might as well pisxxxxed on the moon

 

a lame reported to casa you are leading blokes astray don't start me on reporting to casa it is a crock off sxxx

 

this lame could have killed me neil

 

 

[turboplanner]

Storchy, this system is for reporting my own mistakes and breaches of the law before CASA comes after ME.

 

It is not for reporting other people which you are talking about.

 

So, I might fail to give way to another aircraft, or get lost, or inadvertently fly into cloud - so I submit one of these reports, and I am not proesecuted.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I am very pleased to see the RAA have an up to date (almost) accident incident report that can be seen by ANYONE. This is something thats been campaigned for for a long time. Congrats to the RAA for getting it through (despite the obvious objectors, no guessing who they might be)

 

Its a step in the right direction. And no longer can some of these manufacturers say theres no problem. Look at those numbers!!! Stone the bloody crows. Operator maintainer error? Look at the "facts' and draw your own conclusions...

 

http://www.raa.asn.au/safety/accident-incident-summaries-2014/

 

 

[Yenn]

Two things stand out as far as I can see.

 

Jab engines are still having problems. Not what I want to hear as I have a Jab in the Corby.

 

There are a lot of lack of attention problems, distraction. call it what you like but it is just bad airmanship. I wonder about how flying training is conducted nowadays, for it to be so bad. The fact that so many low time pilots are flying tricycle undercarriages is tearing off nose wheels as if they are going out of fashion.

 

Human Resources training doesn't seem to be doing much good to my way of thinking.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Human resources training? Never heard of it ...lol

 

You are right in both respects yenn.Far far too many jab failures, and far too many silly mistakes. Some bordering on downright stupid!!!

 

 

[facthunter]

The human factors episode was done poorly, in the RAA generally. Individuals may have performed a heroic effort, here and there, but your attitude has to be receptive to the "usefulness" of it. It's not something you do ONCE and that is the end of it. It's ongoing. I believe the CASA should have got more involved. Unless it's done well it is a waste of time, and money. Plenty of people thought it was just a waste of time too, but my experience has been that the ones that poo pooed it the most were the ones who actually NEEDED it the most. This was not in the RAA environment, but people are the same everwhere.Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

what turbs your saying is a load of buxx dust how in the hell is casa going to find you

 

so my reporting of my incident is differant to you flying in to cloud had I not reported I would just shut up one rule for you both cases are duty bound by P I C the person to report it

 

in both cases some can die what would you say had I just put my plane at Bendigo on cross hire and the plane crashed and killed some one as it was legal for me to do all I had to do was fly to Bendigo contract was ready to go

 

as mortz says Some bordering on downright stupidity and I fit that bill

 

law to report all incidents and accidents but it apparently is not law to report a bad lame l2 l3 is what you are saying turbs

 

human factors but my experience has been that the ones that poo pooed it the most were the ones who actually NEEDED it the most. yes facthunter totally agree

 

I just wonder how many have flown melb to Darwin in their little plane that is when human factors comes into play

 

my book shows 220 hrs P I C also shows 96 hrs duel some of duel was in different air craft so as I was comfortable flying any sort of aircraft neil

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I don't think those in incidents are inattention or lack of concentration but rather they are information overload. The low hours pilot can be trying to deal with too many things at once and has not learned yet which things are important in each situation. Knowing what to ignore or let go comes with experience. Call it good airmanship if you will, but it comes from thinking about the right things and ignoring the distractions.

 

 

[turboplanner]

///

 

what turbs your saying is a load of buxx dust how in the hell is casa going to find youso my reporting of my incident is differant to you flying in to cloud had I not reported I would just shut up one rule for you both cases are duty bound by P I C the person to report it

in both cases some can die what would you say had I just put my plane at Bendigo on cross hire and the plane crashed and killed some one as it was legal for me to do all I had to do was fly to Bendigo contract was ready to go

 

as mortz says Some bordering on downright stupidity and I fit that bill

 

law to report all incidents and accidents but it apparently is not law to report a bad lame l2 l3 is what you are saying turbs

 

human factors but my experience has been that the ones that poo pooed it the most were the ones who actually NEEDED it the most. yes facthunter totally agree

 

I just wonder how many have flown melb to Darwin in their little plane that is when human factors comes into play

 

my book shows 220 hrs P I C also shows 96 hrs duel some of duel was in different air craft so as I was comfortable flying any sort of aircraft neil

Line 1

 

In your case, if you fly into a wire and talk about it enough, someone from CASA is likely to notice and charge you with flying below 500 feet, or

 

Someone takes a photo with their IPhone, or

 

Another aircraft involved in the incident submits a report with your name on it, or

 

Someone on the ground gets the registration number or call sign and reports it, or

 

ATC notice an incursion into CTA and track you on radar, or

 

You run out of fuel etc and force land, and the local media takes a photo with your registration on it, or

 

The local police show up, and reports the incident to CASA

 

Or there are a hundred and one ways CASA are going to find out about it.

 

Lines 2 and 3

 

Please NOTE: The report form I quoted is SOLELY a voluntary report to ATSB to encourage pilots to learn from their mistakes, and get an incentive for doing to.

 

It as NOTHING to do with the mandatory incident report you are legally required to make if you are part of an incident or accident.

 

Even that doesn't apply in your case, because your complaint against the L2 and L3, according to what you reported here, and posted photos on was for unsatisfactory repairs.

 

You had your day in Court before a Magistrate who ruled on your allegations, so you take a risk continuing to rubbish them, and question the Magistrate's decision.

 

 

[storchy neil]

In your case, if you fly into a wire and talk about it enough, someone from CASA is likely to notice and charge you with flying below 500 feet,

 

me bloody ladder aint that tall so how do I get out off plane sold me shute 40 year ago read my report buddy

 

You had your day in Court before a Magistrate who ruled on your allegations, so you take a risk continuing to rubbish them, and question the Magistrate's decision

 

had raa tec manager done an inspection of the work carried by a l2 l3 appointed by raa to repair said plane as I see this is a failure by duty of care

 

accreaditation by raa there for makes them raa bound by law to be responsible to ensure that planes fixed or repaired by their agent to meet the airworthy requirements neil

 

 

[turboplanner]

In your case, if you fly into a wire and talk about it enough, someone from CASA is likely to notice and charge you with flying below 500 feet,me bloody ladder aint that tall so how do I get out off plane sold me shute 40 year ago read my report buddy

You had your day in Court before a Magistrate who ruled on your allegations, so you take a risk continuing to rubbish them, and question the Magistrate's decision

 

had raa tec manager done an inspection of the work carried by a l2 l3 appointed by raa to repair said plane as I see this is a failure by duty of care

 

accreaditation by raa there for makes them raa bound by law to be responsible to ensure that planes fixed or repaired by their agent to meet the airworthy requirements neil

Below 5 feet?

 

If the Magistrate had found the actions negligent, I would agree that you had a case to go up the tree to find out who trained and approved the technician, but the Magistrate did not find that there was negligence, so best to move on.