RAAus - Still a debacle

[Gnarly Gnu]

Mate outsource the whole office to India, might not be easier for us - but the joy of having CASA deal with it....

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

It's because a change like you are talking about is tough! Change doesn't just happen, it has to be hurded like cats into existence, and I use the hurded like cats for a reason, it's rare that the entire team embraces your vision and wants to move exactly in step with you, there will be those who can see that suddenly 2-3 won't be needed so they oppose, some overtly, some covertly, others will think why take such small steps when Bigger ones are called for and they're off modifying your scope of work without you knowing, agreeing and compensating in other parts of the plan......involve humans in change or you will fail! Involve humans in change and you will fail! Unless it's very controlled... Complex systems project management isn't easy. Most times managers in the business want the change but don't want to loose the staff you need to the project, yet another source of frustration and angst for you and them!

 

Andy

 

 

[rhysmcc]

My Sport Mag just arrived this week and glossing over some of the board nomination letters, I seem to recall a couple had IT experience. I hope one of the first actions of the new board is setting up an investigative committee to get RAA systems online, including self serve renewals etc that Russ mentioned in an earlier post.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I wonder why the decision hasn't been made already? To my uneducated eyes, the board's hidden agendas are still getting priority.

 

 

[Keith Page]

94 Grange, no way .........I'd be drinking that myself,However....I too got the run around, rego eventually expired, mails to and fro, got slightly agro when 3 weeks expired rego, still flew, bugger em, then rego arrived.

 

I do intend submitting next rego 6 weeks in advance, let's see how that goes.

 

Week or 2 back, I got my license renewal paperwork......full of incorrect data, unreal, wrote correct info over their data, let's see how that goes.

 

The gyro folks have a great system to keep your details up to date, you log into "your" account, update whatever, and management at any time hook into it, and access info as needed. Messages requiring your attention are lodged there as well, so you read, and action as needed. If "you" fail to read, update, etc, well just blame yourself, not admin, easy as. Actually they have a pretty slick operation.

Good one Russ..

 

You make a very good point regarding what the "gyro folks" do.

 

It is not hard to incorporate that process into the data... while the new digital system is being developed ..... Not hard at all.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page.

 

 

[Russ]

Raa just needs to build the format, ( template ) of required info ( possibly exact same data fields as now ) then each member logs into their account, via there own PIN number,of their choosing, then member enters required answers as needed into each field. Probably exact same info as currently submitted by hard copy , then processed individually by Raa staff. Huge amount of staff time involved.

 

Members themselves loading this account with data, and keeping up to date, relieves Raa immensely.

 

Requests from Raa, to that member, are also there, and the member actions as necessary.

 

Other avenues one could incorporate here are limitless, even the monthly magazine could easily be there, to "you" , that alone would save mega $$$ not having to print,mail etc etc. ( I would expect a saving there of $120k per yr, at least )

 

Not embracing ever increasing technologies is bordering on criminal, long gone is the old methods.

 

This also opens up staff to work from their home office, do away with massive costs, owning, renting, whatever, of office space/ buildings, etc.

 

Yes, I could go on and on, but enough for now.

 

( concluding........ponder how to achieve this, don't seek hurdles.)

 

 

[AVOCET]

Good to hear from you Adam; what has happened probably says a lot about the people who thought they could do better than you.

Aah , the sound of the other shoe ;

Reminds my what my Alien friend once told me , ; lest hope this is the last foot ware to fall.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Yes Russ.. You should get "Member of The Year" for that idea.

 

There are positives every where with your idea.. I am working hard just to find some sort of a negative.

 

You nipped those special others in the bud, with ""do not seek hurdles"".

 

Just a case of slowly moving information to digital, for those of us who are not computer savy they can buddy up along the way.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page

 

 

[Cooda]

Russ

 

You're on the money.

 

I manage an industry self-regulator in a different industry.

 

All of our administrative systems are web-based and we provide on-line application and (annual) renewal facility through our website.

 

The final step in the process, to be initiated this year, is to allow 24/7 access for participants to lodge changes in circumstances as and when they occur.

 

OK, we only deal with around 1000 members a year but we cover almost 200 activities and we also store their digitized OH&S plans, QA plans, EMP's, Company profiles etc and link this to the government's on-line tendering system.

 

It ain't rocket science and it hasn't been that expensive to achieve.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Keith

 

I might be being overly sensitive but if I'm the "special others" you are talking about then let me be clear, In my 20 years of implementing complex IT Systems in large corporate businesses its my experience that you don't need to go looking for hurdles, they will find you of their own accord. If you haven't thought of them up front then fixing and sorting the hurdles will be painful and cost more and delay more than if you though about them upfront and put formal mitigation plans into action.

 

For those that think this job is simple, answer me these questions (and they all have answers but I bet they don't just roll off the tongue with no real thought!)

 

1) So while we are just bit by bit digitising records, if we were asked what the master record was for a particular tail, how would we answer? Would there be a single record (EDIT clarity. As a paper record is digitised it is destroyed or stored elsewhere not available to the Opps and Tech team) or is there a digital record and a paper record that is operated in parallel(EDIT for a period of time not forever!, Payrolls are a good example where old and new operate in parallel for a period to ensure accuracy), if not in parallel, how do you know your system as a replacement is accurate?

 

2) If we were asked about a digital record and how did we know that the digital record was an accurate and complete record how would we answer? Coule we identify all changes to the digital record, who made them, who approved the change and when and why?

 

3) How are we sure that the digital records we are creating are as safe as the paper ones we are replacing? In the event of a system failure, how would we recover to a known point in time? If that point in time was not as of the last prefailure transaction, but rather some time back, how would we know what transactions need to be reapplied so that again our system is 100% accurate? Where would we get these to be reapplied transactions fron? how would we marry the transaction on reapplication with a financial transaction that has already occurred, ie we aren't going to charge you a second time for that registration, but we do need to link it to the bank transaction where we charged you to identify if you paid by Visa or Mcard or Amex or cheque or........

 

4) How are you going to insure as you incrementally introduce this technology that all employees, and all members are are the same place in terms of what the changes are?

 

5) What does complete look like, how will staff and members know we have reached complete? For that matter as we do the project how will we know if we are just starting, half way there or all but complete?

 

6) How much will it cost? What about contingency? what about staffing levels? Will there be impacts on members due to the project, How will they be told?

 

7) When you run into an unthought-of problem how will you solve it, Who will be involved in the analysis and architecting the solution, who has authority to accept the proposed changes in schedule cost and future transactional operations, Do we still have an auditable transaction integrity after the changes, How will we know?

 

8) who will be reviewing formal progress and who communicates to the board on progress?

 

9) Who tests the system and what does that test look like? What represents a successful test? Who has authority to accept?

 

These questions aren't asked so that we can all think "Oh it's too hard lets not bother", but rather they are real issues that exist and to ignore and set off on a journey of discovery with no plan and no means of measuring against the plan is an exercise in playing Lotto, for the rare some it works out really well, for the vast majority they will line up for a repeat attempt next week and the next week and the...... "Hope my luck has changed"..... Its my view that Luck has no part to play in complex IT projects!

 

Andy

 

P.S, Our system is not one where close enough is good enough, CASA has very clearly identified if you get it wrong we will ground you! So I don't want to hear people suggesting I'm over complicating it.

 

How do I know that?

 

I believe that what we do in the world of Opps and Tech team is captured in the Opps and Tech manuals and their associated in office procedures. We cant deviate from these, its these that we have been audited against and previously failed against. I cant see us being able to change the systems without up issuing both manuals and/or procedures and proving to CASA that the changes don't affect integrity....Or do others see it differently?

 

 

[Keith Page]

OK Andy

 

Just have all your governance accurately in place and it all will just fall together.

 

Regards

 

Keith Page.

 

 

[Cooda]

Geez Andy, you make it look so hard.

 

If I'd looked at it that way, I wouldn't have gone down the digital path to start with.

 

I guess I've been lucky in my naivety that we found the development of our system to be quite straightforward. (is there a tongue in cheek smilie - please insert here)

 

(Excluding funding considerations for now)

 

Identify the needs

 

Design a system that addresses the needs

 

Test it and Debug it

 

Train the staff

 

Migrate the existing data to the new system

 

Launch it

 

Debug it (ongoing)

 

Continue to evolve it

 

Back up is a hard copy of the current data in the office, daily tape in house, server in Darwin and server in Sydney.

 

But when you consider some of the major government IT system development debacles in recent years, I see what you mean.

 

 

[David Isaac]

... and it all will just fall together ....

What ... by a magic wand Keith?

As I see it, all of what Andy has paraphrased above are scenarios that must be played out in the IT planning process. It is all part of a quality audit trail in software processing functionality that is essential if we want integrity in our systems. I dont think we have a choice available for anything less than what Andy has indicated.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I don't think what Andy pointed out makes it necessarily hard ... it is just what must be considered for the development scope. Nothing new in what he is pointing out, it is just not often considered by those not involved in the process.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

It's much cheaper and easier to have the end user certify all their own documents, that saves the inevitable clerical errors that the RAA seems to be suffering from.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Cooda

 

Thanks for the response however I have to point out that the Launch it, Debug it, and continue to evolve it, section works fantastically for many systems where a fault or 2 wont mean much in the overall scheme of things, but as we have seen every time there is an error in the RAAus system we all have to put up with another 12 months of long registrations for some of us, and no further registration or changed registration for others etc.

 

Some systems cant ever be wrong at system level, and the example of Payroll is the common corporate system, Payroll in general cant be wrong at a system level, there are significant sanctions available to regulators if a payroll system doesn't work and work well, I believe that the system that manages our registrations and certificates is another such system.

 

BTW no system as we contemplate can be 100% accurate if humans input data, but if you input 2hrs normal labour and the system pays you only 1.5hrs then that is an issue that should never have been allowed to move from test to production

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

It's much cheaper and easier to have the end user certify all their own documents, that saves the inevitable clerical errors that the RAA seems to be suffering from.

Certainly worth considering, especially if it is only accuracy of input. If, however, as an example, the user has to upload a certificate of weight and balance then in an ideal system that shouldn't come from the owner but rather the person authorised by RAAus to certify a weight and balance, as an example, just like the NSW RTA registration renewal where the annual roadworthiness check is uploaded by the person paid to do the review direct to the RTA, and the CTP insurer direct to the RTA.

 

Personally I agree that the least amount of keying our team has to do the more likely that the data will be accurate, especially if certification of accuracy comes form the owner via the provider they used for the service.

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

You also need to develop the system to support an app that can act as a log book for both pilot and plane. That will provide you with a world of information for next to nothing.

 

 

[Russ]

"Paper trails" are yesterday's methods, massively expensive to manage, in every way. Digital/electronic....wins hands down.

 

Source specialist tech company, list your wants, your concerns, I know for a fact a good outcome will be achieved here.

 

Raa's outgoings ( $$ ) will seriously reduce once system is in place. Ongoing vigilance to system housekeeping is easily addressed.

 

Absolutely no concern, no negative possibility , no what if's, no whatever's, can not be addressed within a digital/ electronic system.

 

Arguing against digital, is an unwinable argument.

 

 

[Captain]

"Paper trails" are yesterday's methods, massively expensive to manage, in every way. Digital/electronic....wins hands down.Source specialist tech company, list your wants, your concerns, I know for a fact a good outcome will be achieved here.

Raa's outgoings ( $$ ) will seriously reduce once system is in place. Ongoing vigilance to system housekeeping is easily addressed.

 

Absolutely no concern, no negative possibility , no what if's, no whatever's, can not be addressed within a digital/ electronic system.

 

Arguing against digital, is an unwinable argument.

Wow Russ how good and easy is that.

 

 

 

But:

 

 

1. Re your last line, who is that aimed at and who do you think is arguing against "digital"? I don't see anyone except perhaps the dinosaurs that used to be on the Board who resisted this for years.
    
    
   
2. I've been on the Boards of a couple of public companies where some whizz-kid has made a presentation something like yours above (but with 50 pages of filler). Management always felt so warm and fuzzy after it.
    
    
   
   But after warning that it more often than not just aint that simple, we would typically get a request about a week before the management's deadline that said something like "We are about 97% there but not able to quite go live yet. Just approve another 5000 mhrs and there will be "Absolutely no concern, no negative possibility , no what if's, no whatever's, .............".
    
    
   
   The number of subsequent requests for additional time & budget varied with the complexity of the issues but I think I've only seen one that came in on-time and on-budget.
    
    
   
   And in the meantime the targeted end users were whinging like stuck pigs.
    
    
   

 

 

I'm all in favour of RAA moving this way but for anyone to say that this is a no-risk no-delay activity when Certification of Pilots & Schools etc and Registrations of Aircraft are involved in a complete branch of aviation is concerned, with their attendant liabilities and responsibilities, is living in fairyland in my opinion unless you are totally familiar with all of the issues.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The system I wrote for my business was designed primarily to reduce the duplication of entering data and reduce the amount of hand written data we had to process, the person filled in the form online, when they submitted it to the database it flicked over to automatically print out a copy locally for the end user. It saved us so much time, what was a 15 minute process to fill an order was reduced to visual verification and 2 mouse clicks.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Perhaps I'm not coming across as I intended......

 

Is it right that we are on paper still? Hell no!!

 

Is it right that we should be looking to a workflow based digital solution to replace it? Absolutely we should!

 

Is it true that we should get efficiencies as a result of the move? Absolutely we should! but whether we bank savings or do something else that we should, but aren't doing now is for the board to determine

 

But:-

 

Such a change should not commence until:-

 

i)we have a baseline project management plan with a requirements document that has a clear definition of current state, and future state so we know what finished looks like

 

ii) we understand who the stakeholders are and have their documented buy in for the plan

 

iii) we understand how much it will cost in $ and in resourcing and how much contingency we have put aside for risk mitigation and dealing with the unknown unknowns that always exist in complicated projects (and on a scale of complexity this barely moves the indicator, but enough that it needs to be formally managed and governed)

 

iv) we understand who is authorised to do what to whom and when during the plan

 

v) we understand how and when we will regularly review progress against the plan.

 

vi) We understand our obligations to the regulator and how we will fulfil them (which is a subset of ii),iv),v)) including always documenting our processes such that we can be audited against them (and if so, not be found to be noncompliant again)

 

Because starting without those things is playing with members money and No one is authorised in our constitution to gamble members funds.

 

All I have stated is Project Management 101 and those that don't understand it, should not be in charge of a project we are considering.

 

Andy

 

 

[dodo]

Andy is right. All those who think he is imagining problems have not worked on anything like this.

 

If you want an example of how "mostly right" works should look at Pulse - the staff don't trust it's data - a paper file must be consulted because the database cannot be trusted.

 

That makes the pulse database less than useful.

 

You either get it right - really right - or don't bother starting.

 

I would start with a good data model. And that is not a trivial task.

 

dodo

 

 

[skeptic36]

:idea:I know nothing about this stuff, but I wonder if it would be worth asking ASRA :whisper:if RAAus could send a team of knowledgable peeps:chase: over for a look at how their system works. :coffee:I'm sure it wouldn't work turnkey for RAAus but maybe you could use the skeleton of their system, tweak it where necessary to fit the bill. Offer ASRA some cash for the privilege, save a heap on what a scratch build would cost and everyone's a winner

 

 

[SDQDI]

It seems to me that it is a good idea but as Andy says it all needs to be set out beforehand.

 

For those that want to go helter skelter just think how happy everyone would be if we ALL had to come up with all our original rego paperwork with W&Bs just because of a glitch that wasn't foreseen.

 

I have a friend in IT and they recently had a crash caused by an update which lost them a week or so of data they were lucky it had been a quiet time or they would have lost track of who had paid who hadn't, who had been billed etc a lot of dredging through bank statements to try and sort out.

 

One last point if we/when we go digital it would be beneficial to be located in a place with high speed Internet which has to be thought of in regards to ongoing talk of relocating the office. IMHO it would be best to spend an extra years worth of wages getting things sorted as we are before jumping into the digital age.