THE TAX SYSTEM EXPLAINED IN BEER.

[Marty_d]

Stiff joints?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Paying Medicare is another cost to me that I don't use. I haven't been to the doctors for over 30 years so the Medicare card is a waste of money to me. I subsidise old sick people . I have had ore employment medicals

Another way to look at it is, those old sick people would much rather have your situation of being healthy and not needing to see a doctor for 30 years, than taking your taxes to do so...

 

 

[Marty_d]

So, the super rich pay a gaggle of accountants so that their tax can be legally minimised. Two comments:1. The Tax Act (which is bigger than a Sydney phone book) obviously has not covered everything. The law has left legal loopholes for people to exploit but it costs them dearly to find them. Then they make legal claims.

 

2. The accountants (and often lawyers) are all well-paid professionals who themselves pay quite a bit of income tax. One way or another, some tax will be paid even though some taxes are legally avoided.

 

Also, the richer people employ many, many thousands of others in their publishing, manufacturing, retailing and mining businesses, or whatever else they may employ people for. These tens of thousands all pay income tax and GST, etc. In turn, these taxes prop up those who are less fortunate via government wealth reallocation, e.g. the pension, unemployment benefits, people languishing in jails, etc.

Why don't they just pay their taxes then, instead of hiring the expensive professionals to minimise/avoid them? Sorry, I just don't buy the argument that rich people should get out of paying tax because they benefit the country in other ways. Just do what every other poor sap has to do and pay your damn tax.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Sorry, I just don't buy the argument that rich people should get out of paying tax because they benefit the country in other ways.

I 100% agree with you but why are you blaming the people who take advantage of the way the law is written? get the darn laws changed, you have the right.

 

The "poor" have exactly the same right to take advantage of those laws by the way, that they don't is part of the reason they are poor.

 

I don't know why you are embittered against the rich but damn I personally know some of them who worked their asses off all their lives and have been doing so since they were kids, constantly doing it hard and reinvesting in themselves while most chased tail and bought hotted up cars on finance - starting the credit rating and process to become a Bank victim for the entire rest of their lives.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I 100% agree with you but why are you blaming the people who take advantage of the way the law is written? get the darn laws changed, you have the right.The "poor" have exactly the same right to take advantage of those laws by the way, that they don't is part of the reason they are poor.

 

I don't know why you are embittered against the rich but damn I personally know some of them who worked their asses off all their lives and have been doing so since they were kids, constantly doing it hard and reinvesting in themselves while most chased tail and bought hotted up cars on finance - starting the credit rating and process to become a Bank victim for the entire rest of their lives.

Bex, I am not embittered against the rich at all... unless they further their wealth at the expense of the rest of society (by not paying their full tax obligations). I'm extremely content with my position in life and have no envy for those with more, nor any aspiration to sacrifice family and leisure time, which would be required to afford the commitment to become wealthy by, as you say, working my ass off.

 

As for saying the poor have the same rights to exploit legal loopholes, that's a bit disingenuous. The example given was of people with incomes of over 2 million dollars reducing them to 20k. How much benefit will someone on a lower income get by exploiting every legal loophole?

 

If you are committed enough to work your way to wealth, good on you. If you earn your $2mil and pay your tax of $1mil (or whatever it is for that income bracket) then more power to you. If on the other hand you earn your $2 mil and don't pay a dollar of tax then you're only worthy of contempt.

 

You're right of course, the laws should be changed. Neither of the major parties seem to be up to that particular task, and probably will never be while we allow political donations. And good luck getting that changed!

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Tell me are these "mega-rich" people avoiding paying tax or not? Or are they legally tax-minimising (which everyone that claims a deduction does)? If they are avoiding could you explain how that works and why the ATO is .

Try googling "google" and "apple" and "cost shifting" and see how much tax these two companies alone "legally" avoided paying just in this country. All the mining companies are into it as well. They "offshore" their profits to tax haven countries by selling the minerals to a wholly owned subsidiary in the tax haven at a loss to the Oz operation, then the subsidiary in the tax haven resells the minerals at a healthy profit where they don't charge taxes.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I 100% agree with you but why are you blaming the people who take advantage of the way the law is written? get the darn laws changed, you have the right.The "poor" have exactly the same right to take advantage of those laws by the way, that they don't is part of the reason they are poor.

Yeah right......

Like I could go to Abbott or Hockey and get the laws changed. But someone like La Rinehart or Twiggy Forrest can, and they regularly do. Who do you think got the Howard government to relax the cross media ownership laws? Was that Fred Nerk down at number 42 or was it Rupert Murdoch?

 

To think that the average punter has the same political leverage as a mining billionaire campaign donor is naive in the extreme.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Certainly one way to kill a joke - turn it into a political debate.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Certainly one way to kill a joke - turn it into a political debate.

Don't think you could kill that joke, it was already as dead as Michael Jackson.

 

 

[skeptic36]

All the mining companies are into it as well. They "offshore" their profits to tax haven countries by selling the minerals to a wholly owned subsidiary in the tax haven at a loss to the Oz operation, then the subsidiary in the tax haven resells the minerals at a healthy profit where they don't charge taxes.

So, then what happens to the money? If the Oz mining company owns all of the subsidiary that made the money, what then?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Certainly one way to kill a joke - turn it into a political debate.

Well personally I enjoy hearing the Marxist's heads exploding. Just seeing the words 'Prime Minister Tony Abbott' written down gives them the vapours...

 

 

[Marty_d]

Well personally I enjoy hearing the Marxist's heads exploding. Just seeing the words 'Prime Minister Tony Abbott' written down gives them the vapours...

Actually, anyone who didn't vote for the Coalition of Incompetence is sitting back enjoying watching them self-destruct at the moment.

 

 

[Marty_d]

So, then what happens to the money? If the Oz mining company owns all of the subsidiary that made the money, what then?

Who owns the "Oz" mining company?

 

 

[kgwilson]

Crikey, this thread started out as a joke & even though it has been posted at least once before has evolved once again into politics. I think I'll just go flying.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

There are some truisms that seem to have been forgotten by everyone who wants the rich to pay more.

 

1 . Everyone thinks anyone who earns more than they do is rich and overpaid.

 

2. Everyone no matter what they earn thinks it would be impossible to live on less than they currently make ( though plenty of people do)

 

3. Everyone thinks that those who earn more than they do dont deserve it and that years of sacrifice and risk and hard work to get there don't change that.

 

4. Everyone forgets the tax laws are not like the law of gravity or physics. There is NO absolute required amount of tax to be paid. It's a game with rules made by, changed at whim by and totally set by politicians. You'd be a complete idiot to pay more than the rules say you have to pay. Getting someone to tell you what the complex rules say you have to pay, then paying that and only amount is not illegal. It's sensible and to not do it is sheer stupidity.

 

5. While there may be 70 "millionaires" who pay no tax, they do so because they don't actually earn the money that is claimed they earn. They follow the rules set by the rule makers to define what is earned and what is not. If they did they would be paying tax on it. But there's 400,00 australians who earn over $180,000 who the government says will be slugged by these extra taxes - so it's patently obvious that to claim the rich manipulate and don't pay tax is blatantly false because while 70 might get out of it but 400,000 do pay.

 

And now the final clincher

 

6. Almost half the australian workers pay NO income tax. Read that again - workers (not dole bludgers, pensioners or children or students) - half the workers pay "NO income tax" because our tax free threshold is so high, our marginal rates at the lower levels so low and nearly half the working population gets so many tax concessions, rebates, family benefits and money's returned from the government that on balance they actually pay no tax.

 

The country is surviving on the taxes paid by the top half and who get no or minimal benefits from it.

 

It really p....s me off that I worked my butt of for 6 years for no pay at all then 20 years at low pay working up to 100 hours a week - and now already pay more tax every year than many people pay in a lifetime. I start work every Monday knowing I will be working to Wednesday lunchtime to pay my tax bill. Then till Thursday lunchtime till I pay the costs of running my business.

 

Bet you can understand why I'm just hanging out to give away another 2 % of my undeserved income.

 

 

[eightyknots]

And now the final clincher

6. Almost half the australian workers pay NO income tax. Read that again - workers (not dole bludgers, pensioners or children or students) - half the workers pay "NO income tax" because our tax free threshold is so high, our marginal rates at the lower levels so low and nearly half the working population gets so many tax concessions, rebates, family benefits and money's returned from the government that on balance they actually pay no tax.

 

The country is surviving on the taxes paid by the top half and who get no or minimal benefits from it.

Are you saying that the Joke at the beginning of this thread sounds awfully like reality?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

To think that the average punter has the same political leverage as a mining billionaire campaign donor is naive in the extreme.

The billionaire has a plan to offer, the "average punter" doesn't. That the plan tends to favor the persons who created it and present it is quite shocking isn't it.

 

6. Almost half the Australian workers pay NO income tax. .

You are obviously a rich Liberal voter who scours the internet looking to post these scandalous lies over and over.

 

 

[Marty_d]

The billionaire has a plan to offer, the "average punter" doesn't. That the plan tends to favor the persons who created it and present it is quite shocking isn't it.

I'm sorry Bex, can I drill down a little here? The average punter doesn't have a plan to offer? Who says? Perhaps lots of average punters have plenty to offer, but average punters don't get heard, whereas the billionaire has the money and influence to make themselves heard. I'm willing to bet there's masses of chubby white-haired blokes who dream of dinosaurs and big boats who think they know what's best for the country. Wonder what stops them from being heard...

 

There are some truisms that seem to have been forgotten by everyone who wants the rich to pay more.1 . Everyone thinks anyone who earns more than they do is rich and overpaid.

 

2. Everyone no matter what they earn thinks it would be impossible to live on less than they currently make ( though plenty of people do)

 

3. Everyone thinks that those who earn more than they do dont deserve it and that years of sacrifice and risk and hard work to get there don't change that.

 

4. Everyone forgets the tax laws are not like the law of gravity or physics. There is NO absolute required amount of tax to be paid. It's a game with rules made by, changed at whim by and totally set by politicians. You'd be a complete idiot to pay more than the rules say you have to pay. Getting someone to tell you what the complex rules say you have to pay, then paying that and only amount is not illegal. It's sensible and to not do it is sheer stupidity.

 

5. While there may be 70 "millionaires" who pay no tax, they do so because they don't actually earn the money that is claimed they earn. They follow the rules set by the rule makers to define what is earned and what is not. If they did they would be paying tax on it. But there's 400,00 australians who earn over $180,000 who the government says will be slugged by these extra taxes - so it's patently obvious that to claim the rich manipulate and don't pay tax is blatantly false because while 70 might get out of it but 400,000 do pay.

 

And now the final clincher

 

6. Almost half the australian workers pay NO income tax. Read that again - workers (not dole bludgers, pensioners or children or students) - half the workers pay "NO income tax" because our tax free threshold is so high, our marginal rates at the lower levels so low and nearly half the working population gets so many tax concessions, rebates, family benefits and money's returned from the government that on balance they actually pay no tax.

 

The country is surviving on the taxes paid by the top half and who get no or minimal benefits from it.

 

It really p....s me off that I worked my butt of for 6 years for no pay at all then 20 years at low pay working up to 100 hours a week - and now already pay more tax every year than many people pay in a lifetime. I start work every Monday knowing I will be working to Wednesday lunchtime to pay my tax bill. Then till Thursday lunchtime till I pay the costs of running my business.

 

Bet you can understand why I'm just hanging out to give away another 2 % of my undeserved income.

So... you're p*ssed off because you "pay more tax every year than many people pay in a lifetime". Judging by points 4 and 5 you're not opposed to taking advantage of every loophole in the tax system, yet after all that your income is still high enough that you pay more in one year than many people pay in their whole lives? Sorry, I fail to see the downside here for you. I pay enough tax in a year to support someone on Youth Allowance. Do I resent them for getting that money? Not in the slightest. What sort of society will we have if we don't have a safety net for those without the skills, knowledge, opportunities or just plain capacity to get work?

 

"The country is surviving on the taxes paid by the top half and who get no or minimal benefits from it." If you're already in the top half, what benefits do you need?

 

You've obviously got the drive and ambition to "make it" - more power to you. You mentioned working for 26 years at no then low pay for up to 100 hours a week. For those people that do that their whole lives, never make it past that level, just normal hard-working people - do you resent them because they're in that bottom half that, as you said, on balance pay no tax?

 

Not everyone has the capacity to become wealthy, and a lot who do have other priorities.

 

 

[coljones]

Certainly one way to kill a joke - turn it into a political debate.

I'm not sure it was ever a joke. It was a poor attempt to traduce the less well off in society.

 

 

[coljones]

The country is surviving on the taxes paid by the top half and who get no or minimal benefits from it.

Everyone gets politicians, the defence forces, law and order, roads, and public transport, schools, health and welfare etc etc etc all paid for by all forms of tax, including company taxes (but the shareholders get a rebate of that tax), fuel taxes and excises, personal income tax and GST and other taxs and charges. There is vitually no-one who does not pay tax of one form or another,

 

A civil society is built on a sense of equity. Civil wars, revolts, crime and the bad things in life happen when equity (and a sense of) becomes too unbalanced. The rich have much more to lose than the poor so the rich should bear that in mind when cheating or scamming (legally or otherwise) the tax system. That is not a threat from me but an observation based on everyday real world examples.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I'm sorry Bex, can I drill down a little here? The average punter doesn't have a plan to offer? Who says? Perhaps lots of average punters have plenty to offer, but average punters don't get heard, whereas the billionaire has the money and influence to make themselves heard. I'm willing to bet there's masses of chubby white-haired blokes who dream of dinosaurs and big boats who think they know what's best for the country. Wonder what stops them from being heard....

You mean a Billionaire businessman who employs thousands, tens of thousands indirectly, brings billions into Australia gets an audience ahead of an average punter who's proposal will most likely be niave in the greater scheme and 99% guaranteed to be egocentrical based? What a shock.

 

Although that is true for quite obvious and logical reasons, intrinsically your thinking is wrong, go make an appointment with your Local Member and surprise yourself, their doors are always open and at the end of the day, they need your vote.

 

Each year I would write 10 to 20 emails I guess with various concerns or comments and either send them bulk to the 500+ Members and Senators or to Individual depending on the subject. I visited Rudd 2 times at his office with a phone call pre-appointment in 2012 and 2013 and had chats about things.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Marty-d said "

 

"Judging by points 4 and 5 you're not opposed to taking advantage of every loophole in the tax system, yet after all that your income is still high enough that you pay more in one year than many people pay in their whole lives? Sorry, I fail to see the downside here for you."

 

That's where you are wrong. Most people who earn good money (the 400,000 previously mentioned who have no way of avoiding tax ) are just like me and have no way of manipulating the rules. That's why I work till and including Wednesday to pay my taxes. Last year I paid just over 45% of my income in tax. I got a single tax deduction for the costs outlaid on going to a conference which cost me three times as much in lost wages (which I can not claim as a deduction).

 

 

[eightyknots]

Marty-d said ""Judging by points 4 and 5 you're not opposed to taking advantage of every loophole in the tax system, yet after all that your income is still high enough that you pay more in one year than many people pay in their whole lives? Sorry, I fail to see the downside here for you."

That's where you are wrong. Most people who earn good money (the 400,000 previously mentioned who have no way of avoiding tax ) are just like me and have no way of manipulating the rules. That's why I work till and including Wednesday to pay my taxes. Last year I paid just over 45% of my income in tax. I got a single tax deduction for the costs outlaid on going to a conference which cost me three times as much in lost wages (which I can not claim as a deduction).

Some people are working until morning tea time on Thursday, just paying taxes. This is because there a lot of 'other' and 'less visible' taxes as well. Think of stamp duty on vehicle or home transfers, various duties and excises for things like beer, spirits, wine and petrol. Then there is GST on most purchases. I am glad for you, Jaba-who, that you are able to start working for yourself by Wednesday afternoon.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Actually if you read all my original post I said I don't start earning ANY money for myself till about Thursday lunchtime - till wednesday I'm just paying my personal income tax ( just did a quick calculation 46.45% i paid last year.) :-( Then after tax comes the cost of running my business, paying my staff etc . Which is all earned solely by my efforts by the way.

 

And yep you are right there's still more taxes I forgot about ( duties, fees etc) so we can extend it out to maybe even later on Thursday.

 

So then on Thursday some time in the afternoon i get some for myself but 10% of whatever I pay with that money goes on GST.

 

I'm almost at the stage where I feel like joining a mate of mine who a few years ago said he was sick of this theft on and he moved to Malaysia.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Then after tax comes the cost of running my business, paying my staff etc . Which is all earned solely by my efforts by the way.

Wow, if you're the ONLY one in your business contributing to the income of the business, why are you paying the employees at all?