Wellcamp

[dazza 38]

Yes i grant perhaps a second runway could be justified, but basically in my opinion the rest of the airport is so far below capacity you r dreaming if you think it needs upgrading, let alone warrants freight or passenger transport to TownsvilleGo fly in and out of Sydney or Melbourne, Hong Kong or Beijing for a while and you will soon realize what a joke the traffic and people are at Brisbane ... Its a big country airport basically

 

You guys are kidding if you think Brisbane is near capacity

Hmmm, for the record, Brisbane airport when its cross runway is closed (which is most of the time because of the second parallel runway construction). Is the second busiest single runway operation airport in the world after Gatwick in London.

 

 

[DrZoos]

As i said..runway upgrade yes...rest of it is a half baked country airport, far from operating at capacity.. Go fly a bit elsewhere, come back and you will know what im talking about...this is the quietest city airport i fly through anywhere...

 

I love it, a 5 -10 minute delay is considered big... Thats early at sydney or melbourne , hong kong, KL etc...

 

 

[Peter008]

I'm sitting at the Singapore lounge Terminal 3 at the moment reading this thread. I could suggest the same thing here; almost nobody about. However when i flew in three weeks ago it was packed full. Hardly room to move to the connecting gate and be on time. Heathrow was packed as well. Nearly knocked down in the rush!

 

The same could be said of Brisbane. Most times when I am there the seats at the gates are quite full, the eatery is always packed, mostly with people who do not need the junk food. Rarely is it deserted as my flights go in and out. Only fly through there once a month so maybe the frequency is not a good sample to judge.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Singapore is currently capable of 70M pax pa and only processes 48M pa.. I have been through it and to compare it with Brisbane not reality... It has 100 carriers and is in a different league to Brisbane... Thats afternoon its not peak hour...hit Singapore at 10 am then tell me Brisbane is busy.

 

But even Singapore is well below current capacity at approx 60%

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Getting back on thread, Wellcamp (Brisbane west) is being constructed because of continuing growth around the area and predominately for freight hub support and that's where the Wagner dynasty can see opportunity and ROI.. if they get walk on freight as well that will be a nice bonus and the Qantas link to Sydney is a good PR exercise to help quell the doubters of the project. Airspace promulgation has not been completed and I'm not sure at what stage any investigation by air-services is at with that. Wellcamp will be initially run towerless and uncontrolled. Military airspace had to be shrunken to accommodate arrival and departures out of Wellcamp without impacting workload on Oakey controllers, which has resulted in the RAAF making it harder for VFR transits through Oakey Army Airspace. YTWB will remain as it always has been, predominately a non RPT aerodrome which has some protection under the Commonwealth Aerodromes Act (even though its run by TRC)..

 

 

[dazza 38]

I dont know want you want Doc, Brisbane is the third busiest airport in Aus, and the busiest with a single runway in Aus, 2nd in the world. I have flown out of Brissy every two weeks for the last two a a half years. Only ONCE in that time we have used the GA cross runway. The second parallel runway should have been built 10 years ago. Brisbane is not a back water.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Dazz my point was not about Brisbane runway. It was about total airport capacity and the lack of a need for others to take Brisbane freight or pax. Anyway lets not over analyse this shit. All i meant was ya joking if ya think its commercially viable for Brisbane residents or freight to leave via Anywhere but brisbane

 

A 15 minute occasional delay will never warrant permanent movement of freight or pax 30 minutes. Its pure economics. To warrant a regular 30 min pax or freight diversion ypu would need a 1 hour regular delay minimum, or a reasonably regular 90 minute delay...

 

Eg if i get freight or pax delayed by 30 min 183 days per year , that warrants a 15 minute diversion. So an average 15 minute delay at brisbane between 7 am and 10 am, then 5-8 pm daily 183 days per year only warrants a 7 min further trip for freight or pax during those hours... But average it out and nothing in Brisbane warrants freighting pax or freight more then 5 min further...

 

 

[WayneL]

All i meant was ya joking if ya think its commercially viable for Brisbane residents or freight to leave via Anywhere but brisbane

Wellcamp Airport is not trying to encourage Brisbane residents to fly out of Toowoomba.....only those that live locally or would have to travel past Toowoomba to get to Brisbane such as western Darling Downs. Also will allow visitors direct access to Toowoomba.

No freight is going to go from Brisbane to Toowoomba to be flown out. Wellcamp Airport is designed to capture the local and passing trade on the Darling Downs...not the freight from down the range.... it will still go to Brisbane. I remember reading recently that something like 40 odd percent of the freight leaving Brisbane comes via the Darling Downs and further west.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I live near the Warrego hwy, the most common loaded trucks heading east are grain and cattle. I just don't think that the Wagner plan is that solid, why call it Brisbane West Wellcamp when its not even close to Brisbane? Stupid name and its the first thing ppl comment on. Wagners are [hoping to be] making their money doing the industrial park which is 233 industrial/commercial lots. There is so much empty industrial and commercial property in Toowoomba its not a good market to be getting into or out of.

 

 

[rankamateur]

What is the matter with you mate? Did your developement application for a second airport get thrown out by the council? John Wagner didn't get where he is today by being wrong more often than he has been right. If you build 233 lots and only 133 sell in the first ten years, it just means you still have 100 for expansion. Relax FT, you worry too much.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Gouging ppl for concrete is a lot different to running an airport

 

 

[WayneL]

Brisbane West was CASA's naming, probably not what the council would have wanted. Live export is one of the targeted freights for Wellcamp.

 

 

[ExJourno]

Family Wagner tends to hang around the bigger end of town, so to speak. The types of need they would be aiming to fill are not the types we common-folk would tend to consider.

 

A couple of points -

 

Toowoomba is a major hub. Period. Significant traffic flows through it heading up, down and west.

 

A hell of a lot of transported goods heading north and south actually travel via Toowoomba... the second range crossing is a stark recognition of that. It is not for Toowoomba, per se, THAT is for non-Toowoomba traffic (and to ease Toowoomba's traffic back to localish-only levels).

 

Few of us here would be aware of the levels of export coming from the Toowoomba wider catchment that would otherwise be flown out from Brisbane.

 

We also may not be able to contemplate what export is not being capitalised upon due to distance and cost of utilising Brisbane.

 

The previous point leads me to this - I'm driving to Sydney next fortnight. Why? Because I calculated the time it will take me to anticipate traffic, wait around the airport, and the same at the other end etc etc, the cost to park for two days, car hire/cabs and suddenly it wasn't worth the effort to fly. Three people heading south from Toowoomba, two hours longer total trip in our own car, extra night of accommodation, no parking/cabs/carhire... also worked out cheaper - at the cost of 2 hrs each way. There will be people capitalising on flights interstate from Toowoomba whom would probably not otherwise bother.

 

Skytrans is out because they cannot compete and, frankly, were a service I personally found (and I would assume to be representative) inconvenient and pricey.

 

Now then... there were some ultralights "buzzing" the Wellcamp facility not so long ago... it sparked a public comment from a Wagner that there would not be light air traffic utilising the facility.

 

IE, if Toowoomba Regional Council wants to close the airfield at Wilsonton, it will not be because of a perception that the traffic from there can pick up and move to Wellcamp. That simply isn't going to be allowed to happen.On the other hand, it may well give Steve Jones the opportunity he has been screaming for the put in a decent airport in the Lockyer Valley. Maybe it will spark that one at Lake Clarendon to become a viable prospect... it doesn't seem to have gained any traction as yet, that place.

 

 

[red750]

How does this compare to Tullamarine/Avalon? Is Avalon primarily for Geelong traffic?

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Avalon and Wellcamp have absolutely nothing in common. demographics are completely different because the Darling Downs area is growth positive whilst Geelong is unfortunately in a downward spiral with a lot of local manufacturing icons and heavy jet maintenance facilities closing..

 

 

[fly_tornado]

What does Toowoomba region actually produce? anyone? Most of what I see going east into Brisbane is too low value to justify a 12 hour jet ride. They are talking organic chicken but its going to bloody expensive by the time it gets to Singapore.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Avalon and Wellcamp have absolutely nothing in common. demographics are completely different because the Darling Downs area is growth positive whilst Geelong is unfortunately in a downward spiral with a lot of local manufacturing icons and heavy jet maintenance facilities closing..

Geelong is a Marginal Seat - one of the luckiest things that can ever happen to you, so any negative news makes headlines, but so much government money has been pouring in over the past few decades that its population has massively expanded creating a freight train of employment. Sure Ford is moving out, but has been since the 1950's, and Target cut staff, and Alcoa is doing what aluminium smelters are doing, but there has been massive growth towards Geelong from Melbourne and Geelong has been a commuting suburb of Melbourne for years.

 

Avalon has failed because it took too long to get there from Melbourne and it wasn't site competitive, so Geelong people have been choosing to travel Tullamarine.

 

Lindsay Fox touted Avalon as a freight hub for fresh produce (usually in the press, lettuces) to be exported directly out of Avalon to "Asia" in a volume which sounded like the Berlin Airlift.

 

Urban development is heading towards Avalon fast, and one day it will be worth hundreds of millions of dollars as industrial land.

 

If Wellcamp are thinking of live export, it would do well to look at the size of a live export ship and the conditions required on board for the animals.

 

However, it's pointless us trying to do financial models for these type of people - they are the only ones who know what their current game plan is and what their ultimate game plan is, and it's now too late to think of saving other airports if they will be screwed by this development.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Don't get me wrong Turbs, I'm personally not 100% convinced that the inconvenience being spread about is worth the commercial gain of a family. But in stating that, the Wagner family have been quite astute since being on the bones of their backsides in the 1980's. they would have done their homework before risking the hundreds of millions of their own money in building their airport. This is a long term investment by them and with the growth along the eastern seaboard corridor, Blind Freddy would be able to see an advantage of developing a distribution hub in the Toowoomba region (with a airfreight terminal) This development won't have too much affect on Toowoomba municipal aerodrome either way. It has and will affect Oakey airspace more so though..

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Buy up all the quarries you can find in SEQ, create a monopoly on concrete to clear the debt, sell to Boral.

 

 

[ExJourno]

FT... is there something you actually know in this?

 

Because, I am failing to understand the context for your point of view... ...as well as not agreeing with it. Usually, however, I can see the reasoning behind an opposing viewpoint.

 

As for what does the region export... well, that is the big question. But more so, is what COULD the region export. Or import. Don't forget, the catchment is also half way to Sydney to the south. There would be significant opportunities for exports not being made, with a global service located at Wellcamp and which may not have been as viable before. There is also a costs benefit to some companies moving operations to a regional hub, away from the city hub.

 

Finally, re the affect on Toowoomba and Oakey... yes, Oakey is more affected. There are changed bits and pieces to be aware of and a couple of months back, Amberley sent a officer around to give seminars on the changes. My understanding was the biggest issue for Toowoomba is a slightly different approach path from North and South xcountry... and an issue with separation (head to head on takeoff in depending on active runways) as the Toowoomba and Wellcamp runways are close to being in line - CASA are watching the space to see how it needs massaging... apparently.

 

Years from now all the naysayers will either be patting themselves on the backs, or life will be going on and Wellcamp will be a welcome part of life - I suspect the latter.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

How does this compare to Tullamarine/Avalon? Is Avalon primarily for Geelong traffic?

I have flown into Avalon a few times with the planes loaded with Chinese, the ticket prices are ridiculously cheap compared to arriving at Tulla and also direct flight from my Mainland China city, win, win.

 

Also and oddly, there's more direct flights to those 2nd tier airports Avalon, Gold Coast, Rocky, Adelaide etc from 2nd tier Mainland China airports. Most Chinese major airports you can not get direct, cheap flights to Bris, Melb and Syd, needing to change over at HK, KL or Singapore.

 

My point is I can see cheap direct flights coming for International to Wellcamp - stoopid name.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Bex, you have been in China too long. I would doubt you could find 10 Chinese that known where Toowoomba is.

 

Adam, the industrial park has the real potential to disrupt the industrial and commercial real estate markets in Toowoomba due to the size of the development out there. A quick squizz on real commercial found 130 vacant industrial rentals so adding 223 more is just going to kill that market. And you might be thinking well good on Wagner's for investing in Toowoomba, they will get a massive tax write off with this investment losing money for the next 15 years, so you as PAYE tax payer and a TRC rate payer are the one picking up the bill.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Yep , definitely wth you FT What is not to hate about the whole damned thing?

 

 

[Geoff13]

Decentralisation done right can only be good in the long run. Sounds like a severe case of tall poppy syndrome coming in here. The thing about commercial real estate is the time it takes to fill places. Build the infrastructure and they will come. They may not come tomorrow but they will come. Many people have made good money by buying cheap commercial real estate and waiting for the infrastructure to make it prime real estate. As for the tax write offs I would muck rather see an Australian company get a tax write off then see our infrastructure/land be sold to overseas investors, 'a-la' Cubby Station and a million others that I could mention. And if it means that they expatiate the 2nd range crossing well bloody good on them that can only help the rest of Southern Qld and if you think it won't help Toowoomba, then just ask them tho leave all the exits that go into the city off. Anything that will stop the 1000's of trucks having to climb that stuffup called the range every day can only help our economy.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Bex, you have been in China too long. I would doubt you could find 10 Chinese that known where Toowoomba is..

They certainly didn't know Avalon before either.

 

Think of the job opportunities for you FT, here a few ideas for you ....

 

 

Grab a mate and take the Chinese for tours over the Towoomba ranges ...