RAA Pilot to HGFA PPG

[Downunder]

It looks like PPG's are piloted under the HGFA banner.

 

Has anyone with a RAA pilots cert done less than the full training course to get their ppg cert?

 

A "discount" if you like......

 

I see the PPC is under the RAA cert so it's just an endorsement I take it?

 

 

[Cosmick]

It looks like PPG's are piloted under the HGFA banner.Has anyone with a RAA pilots cert done less than the full training course to get their ppg cert?

A "discount" if you like......

 

I see the PPC is under the RAA cert so it's just an endorsement I take it?

Hi Downunder,

 

I would expect a CFI in HGFA would take into account your flying experience and train you to a level of competancy whether that takes 15, 20 or 30 hours and at their discretion charge less if doing less. There is I believe (may be wrong) a mandatory set number of minimum hours in a Paraglider before moving to Powered Paraglider.

 

The same with RAA, if you come to aviation and lean to fly PPC (or fixed wing) than the rule of thumb with RAA is 20hrs depending on your ability. If you already hold a Group A certificate (Fixed Wing) and wish to take on Group D (PPC) an endorsement may only take 5 hours again depending how long it takes you to reach a level of competancy. If you hold Group D and wish to get into Group A than you may be up for at least 15 hours due to the necessary learned skills to fly fixed wing.

 

I hope that is not to confusing.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Once you fly a Paraglider without an engine, you won't want the complexity and noise and added risk. Laurie

 

 

[Downunder]

Hmmm....Yes, it seems a fixed wing RAA pilot (me) can do a PPC endorsement (eg. Aerochute) in a minimum of 5 hrs as per cosmick's reply but needs the 20 hours of paragliding under HGFA to THEN be able to be trained to get a PPG rating/endorsement...

 

I did read on a website efforts are underway to be able to make it acceptable (with CASA) to initially/directly train for a PPG. There was no date next to the comment so I have no-idea how current it is.

 

The only redeeming feature is the overall training cost for PG/PPG is substantially lower than general RAA training.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

yeah but if you have to belong to both RAAus and HGFA then there is a substantial duplication of cost for as long as you choose to fly both and neither, other than the ability to fly, provides much in the way of obvious value for money......that said what we get in RAAus seems like absolute riches compared to the 3/5ths of 5/8ths of zip that you get from HGFA...... unless you are interested in hang gliders and nothing else

 

 

[Downunder]

As RAA are already into trikes and PPC's, adding PPG's (Powered Para Gliders) to RAA rego makes sense to me, but maybe that is where the line is drawn.

 

I would really like to have a go at PPG's but as you say Andy the costs get out of hand with membership of both organisations.

 

Seems a bit of a shame all the lower end powered flight activities can't be covered by the one entity.

 

 

[paulh]

Keenaviator will be able to provide factual info but I understand that there is a considerable difference between flying a powered parachute eg Aerochute type to powered paragliders. Apart from the obvious weight difference, and one being parachute type and the other being more glider, extra skill level required to handle the higher performance glider with less pendulum weight to shift, deal with possible partial collapses etc.

 

I love the idea of paragliders but don't live near many suitable sites so understand the appeal of a motor to get you in the air.

 

Plus they pack up in the boot!

 

 

[Downunder]

I don't mind the training. 5/10 hours or whatever.

 

But a manditory 20 to 25 hours plus annual membership of HGFA is what bugs me.

 

I would hope a RAA pilot has a bit more up his sleeve than joe blow off the street going into PPG training.

 

 

[Graham]

Downunder what is the annual HGFA membership fee worth????

 

I'm looking at getting the Blackhawke paramotor I take it this is what I'll need?

 

 

[Downunder]

Looks like $350 to $400 per year depending on your state.

 

http://hgfa.asn.au/HGFA/Forms/MEM-01.pdf

 

20 hours or pure paragliding then 5 hrs power (from memory). More hours if your instructor deems it necessary.

 

With RAA membership and aircraft ownership, I've got my hands full and my bank empty, so never went any further.

 

A few schools around http://www.ppgaustralia.com/schools.htm

 

Good luck....

 

 

[kasper]

And to go back to the start ...

 

If you are already RAAus PPC (trike under a parachute type wing) you can fly any RAAus registered PPC (subject to the performance wing issues that RAAus have recently created for PPC)

 

If you already have RAAus PPC there is no logical reason to NOT talk to your CFI and the RAAus Ops Manager about adding Group F to your RAAus certificate ... group F is foot launched ... and THEN you would have Group D for PPC for trike flying and group F for PPG for foot flying

 

This will probably annoy the Ops Manager as currently I understand that there are no Group F certificate holders and she has not got a lot in the Ops Manual on them but its available and logically should be able to be expanded to cover foot launch PPG ... but the sting will be that teh PPG would need to be registered with RAAus as an 'aircraft' and that might kill this off - but its worth exploring if you only want to remain with RAAus of the two organsiations and not face duplicate costs.

 

I have not flown foot launch fixed wing AUF aircraft since the mid 1990's and now freely admit that even getting up to the 10mph needed back then will be beyond me

 

 

[Downunder]

And to go back to the start ...If you are already RAAus PPC (trike under a parachute type wing) you can fly any RAAus registered PPC (subject to the performance wing issues that RAAus have recently created for PPC)

If you already have RAAus PPC there is no logical reason to NOT talk to your CFI and the RAAus Ops Manager about adding Group F to your RAAus certificate ... group F is foot launched ... and THEN you would have Group D for PPC for trike flying and group F for PPG for foot flying

 

This will probably annoy the Ops Manager as currently I understand that there are no Group F certificate holders and she has not got a lot in the Ops Manual on them but its available and logically should be able to be expanded to cover foot launch PPG ... but the sting will be that teh PPG would need to be registered with RAAus as an 'aircraft' and that might kill this off - but its worth exploring if you only want to remain with RAAus of the two organsiations and not face duplicate costs.

 

I have not flown foot launch fixed wing AUF aircraft since the mid 1990's and now freely admit that even getting up to the 10mph needed back then will be beyond me

Thanks for that Kasper. I do remember seeing the "Foot launched" endorsement written somewhere and wondering what it was about.

 

I just thought it would be great to throw a PPG in the back of the ute and go for the odd fly on one of those cold clear mornings......

 

But I don't want to join HGFA and pay their fees or do 25 to 30 hrs training either....got enough on my plate with RAA....

 

This bloke makes it look so easy...

 

 

 

[SDQDI]

proud screwed member of a now Pty Ltd? Nice move RAA!..No one saw nothing,.No accounts to be given to any one now, association statuts were becoming a little bit hot recently... our escape artists are back in business as usual

Might not hurt to read this

 

https://www.governanceinstitute.com.au/media/839958/difference-between-private-and-public-company-structure-under-the-corporations-act_2015.pdf

 

PS. RAA is NOT a pty ltd company but rather a company limited by guarantee.

 

It is ok for people to bash RAA but at least get your facts straight first.

 

 

[kasper]

When you buy an aerochute your ass belongs to the ContesYou get a D license (a fraud as it is not recognized overseas)

You will need their parts so they know you will never open your mouth against them as you cannot buy these from anyone else the lot being certified 32 and numbered ti the last bolt and nut this is why I got a war when I changed mine to 19 to buy my freedom

 

It would have been ok but the bleeding started and others followed me...So my rego was suddenly cancelled after 3 years of flying...no explanation given, I got further punishment when I tried to get it back for years unsuccessfully as a disciplinary panel was set and my fate sealed

 

But when decided it was lost I sold it, and miraculously the new aussie owner was presto registered in the following week.... no questions asked...is it not amazing that revenge of the nerds, this racism?

 

now

 

When you try resell them (the mere pile of tube by then.... once you realized that what you have bought was the registration only and the pink glasses are broken) a huge loss awaits the dodo (often half price after 2 years plus all the repairs you have done as they break easy and often) they will wait until you become a Gumtree desperate mental wreck and offer you a pittance so they can re-flog them and make mire profit

 

That's what monopoly does

 

U sont mind theis is business

 

As long as business is not supported by a genuine altruistic association

OK - i am aware of some of your history here but there are a couple of points/comments/clarifications:

 

1. if its 32 reg and from a factory you really are not supposed to just move it to 19 reg - you didn't build it so it really fails the definition of 19 ... that might explain the loss of regn three years down the track after the 'errors' in the RAAus regn debacle were fixed

 

2. getting an aircraft back into 32 regn as a factory aircraft after its been fiddled with can be frustrating ... I can't and will not comment or speculate on why it might have been easier/quicker for someone other than you.

 

3. most aircraft loose value rather rapidly when you fly them off the lot - its like a car. Any 2stroke losses money faster than a 4stroke. These are the realities of aircraft ownership and always was and will be the case. I agree the loss in value for aerochutes is pretty steep and rapid but if you didn;t do any homework on what the market thats not really the fault of the manufacturer

 

I'm not attacking you - I actually feel for you and your experience and with full knowledge agree the RAAus tech office are complete failures in knowledge on some airframes that they are controlling - in my case its flexwings and I have just come to the conclusion that they do not know what they are doing so I just comply with teh letter of the law and ignore them for anything technical. You make your assessments and act on your decisions.

 

 

[DrZoos]

This bloke makes it look so easy...

WOW wouldn't have believed that if i didn't see it with my own eyes

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Once you fly a Paraglider without an engine, you won't want the complexity and noise and added risk. Laurie

Well spotted Frank (I'm about to pick up a paramotor!)

 

 

[Keenaviator]

WOW wouldn't have believed that if i didn't see it with my own eyes

It was pretty impressive and he had it down pat.

 

 

[fred cenko]

Thanks for that Kasper. I do remember seeing the "Foot launched" endorsement written somewhere and wondering what it was about.I just thought it would be great to throw a PPG in the back of the ute and go for the odd fly on one of those cold clear mornings......

But I don't want to join HGFA and pay their fees or do 25 to 30 hrs training either....got enough on my plate with RAA....

 

This bloke makes it look so easy...

 

I know what you mean Downunder about the HGFA fees,they are ridiculous,I remember my weightshift trike flying

days with them,sometimes we complain about the RAAUS,but at least they made a good effort and cosiderably reduced my rego last year with my Aerochute.I guess if the HGFA get more members they will reduce their fees too.Good way to promote this sport is promote it here I reckon.Love the video,why have a complex rocket powered

 

back pack when you can have one of these.What is the fuel burn per hour on one of these?

 

 

[pgpete]

Hi all,

 

as i am part of the HGFA crew I thought I'd correct some exaggerations here.

 

Costs of Microlights under the HGFA vs RAA - if you take everything into account ( membership, registration, licence ) the costs are fairly similar - the thing that gets up most people's nose is a state levy which hasnt benefited ML pilots much in the past - but that is changing.

 

The HGFA and the RAA operations managers /CEO communicate regularly on many topics.

 

Yes the HGFA now has something dubbed "the straight through course" - offered by about 5 HGFA schools on the east coast. it takes you from a new pilot to a fully qualified independent PPG motor pilot - wheels and/ or foot launched. - and you dont have to do any free flying.

 

(what most prospective pilots fail to understand is that a large part of being a PPG pilot is canopy control - by spreading out your training and allowing you to develop good canopy control skills over time, makes you a better and safer pilot - but they dont wanna hear that.)

 

There was discussion above about the different approaches regarding ram air chute operations under the different organizations.

 

RAA's involvement comes from Aerochute operations - which has a canopy that is a fairly inefficient - but reliable ( it stays open ....mostly ) - a square ram-air chute

 

PPG under HGFA 's history involves the use of efficient but temperamental elliptical paraglider wings.

 

The HGFA paramotor qualification deals with the management of these elliptical wings.

 

CASA , according to the CAO's, dont differentiate between Aerochute square wings or PPG elliptical wings - to them its all 95.32 or, if under 70KG and HGFA - CAO 95.8

 

So if you are considering flying a low mass elliptical wing HGFA training covers this sort of aircraft better.

 

Oh someone also mentioned that joining the HGFA just to try PPG is too expensive - that's true - I have the same opinion of doing training in a RAA aircraft.

 

HGFA's core business is weight shift aircraft - historically from hang gliders, then microlights, then paragliders then PPG.

 

RAA''s core business seems to be Jabiru-type aircraft these days - I didnt see any Drifter's, Thrusters, or Aerochutes at Ozkosh.

 

-------

 

I left the AUF in 1999 - I joined the HGFA to become a paramotor pilot - free flying seduced me, - yes I did get my PPG ticket eventually but soaring over cliffs at the beach or chasing thermals inland is my passion now.

 

 

[Downunder]

Thanks for your input pgpete.

 

I pretty much agree with what you are saying.

 

It's just a shame that I don't have the choice to stay with just one organisation to fly 3-axis AND ppg.

 

More so from the RAA side as I can stay 3-axis and fly trikes and aerochutes already....

 

I agree that any training needs to be correct and cover the requirements, however I am against compulsory hours in the context of someone already holding a form of aviation licence or certificate.

 

I'm not sure how the RAA would cover training if they wanted to add ppg.

 

The obvious way would be for the RAA to outsource to the existing HGFA training organisations.

 

Rather than blocking it to protect their "turf", the HGFA could actually benefit from this by providing temporary membership during training providing extra income for the organisation and especially the training facilities.

 

Having thousands of (3-axis) RAA members potentially able to get a ppg endorsement and remain with one organisation yet be trained under the HGFA would benefit both organisations would'nt it?