RAA or SAAA for builders?

[Soleair]

The SAAA says it exists to assist in "building, maintaining and operating sport aircraft".

 

In light of this, would they be a better organisation to assist me in my amateur build and equally important, to guide me through the regulatory nightmare to registration that follows the build, than the RAA?

 

I'd particularly welcome comments from members of both organisations.

 

TIA

 

Bruce

 

 

[facthunter]

If you do it through the SAAA you will have plenty of paperwork. There is a limit to what you can build under the RAAus that doesn't apply to the SAAA, so you could expect more complexity with SAAA to do the more complex ones. IF RAAus sticks to its aims it should be simpler to do something under the RAAus where it is within it's rules. Who really knows what the final position will be. Uncertainty has been a feature of the CASA to industry relationship for years now. Nev

 

 

[Bandit12]

I have been along to a couple of SAAA meetings recently with the intent of joining, and found it really inspiring. The conversation was almost exclusively about building, and the first question anyone asked was "What are you building?" If you replied that you weren't yet, the response was to question what was stopping you! If you said that you were interested in RVs, you were steered towards a few people currently building them, then towards a few who were flying them. If you wanted to build in wood, someone with a wood project was quickly found to talk to.

 

Interestingly a number of them weren't yet pilots, while quite a few more only had GFPTs or low hour PPLs. They were there to discuss building first, flying second. But that could just have been the chapter that I went to as well.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

while quite a few more only had GFPTs or low hour PPLs.

from what I've seen, that's what sets them apart.

 

 

[facthunter]

They don't get into pilot training much. You get everything from current ATPL's to just ab initio training for PPL's. I think they intend to, which will be a tin of worms for an organisation with such a small umber of members. The variation of planes possible is almost limitless but the RV series are becoming "Ubiquitous". Nev

 

 

[peter]

I am working through SAAA building my Onex. Very happy with the advice/help/attitude so far.

 

Peter

 

 

[dlegg]

Both organisations are good and cater to different groups.

 

Do you have a PPL or intend to get one, intend to register your homebuilt as VH, would like to build an aircraft with a larger MTOW than 600kg?Then SAAA is the only way forward for you.

 

If you build a plane that fits in the RAA sport category, 19 reg, 600kg MTOW, stall speed lower than 45kts, day VFR only, RAA pilot certificate, then RAA is the way forward for you.

 

Both organisations have rules to follow, so you really have to decide which way you want to go before you start.

 

Both websites have plenty of information to wade through.

 

www.raa.asn.au

 

www.saaa.com

 

 

[Soleair]

Thanks to all for your replies.

 

What I didn't say in my original post was that I had mailed both organisations asking various questions regarding my build. This was partly because I wanted to know what was/was not required, and partly to gauge responses.

 

RAA responded, and I had a very useful telephone conversation with Dean Tompkins about how I should progress my Mini-Max build. So full marks to RAA and many thanks to Dean for his friendly help.

 

No response so far from SAAA.

 

So I will be going the RAA route, and registering under 95.55 (19 reg), when I eventually finish my build.

 

All I need now is my box of bits from our Merkan cousins - just the 5 weeks behind advertised delivery schedule so far.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

 

 

[metalman]

Something that is often not known is that you do not have to belong to any organisation to build your own aircraft, although it may be a good idea to! The SAAA have a very comprehensive "kit" for registering GA experimental ,which in my opinion is the better way to go if you have a PPL, the rego is less ( one fee for life ) and there's not as many restrictions on the use of the aircraft, RAA comes with a few restrictions along with a yearly cost of rego and RAA membership . There is no difference in the cost of maintenance and periodics ( inspite of RAA pilots not doing the required Ints8 and rad47) .

 

Not sure why SAAA didn't get back to you but you could give our tech guy a call as he is very handy regarding both options,

 

Matty

 

 

[XAIRVTW]

Im a member of the SAAA I built my plane under the guide lines of the SAAA. I found the process rewarding & informative. Paper work for the C of A is no problem, you just follow what is set out in the pack no big deal. The flight testing hours are easy to follow again the paper work is all described what needs to be done. Join a SAAA chapter in your area you will get all the help you need.

 

 

[Tucano]

I would not be building the kit I chose if it was not for the help of SAAA. As the original intent was to fly it as a ultralight, RAA was approached to evaluate the kit before importation but the reply was a disappointing NO QUICK BUILD - flat pack or nothing. When I ask to see a discuss the evaluation I receive a curse reply in simple terms was if you are not happy see CASA. It took many months of work to prepare an evaluation but I could not get to the magic 49% - it was close and the kit visually was no more advanced than a RV quick build - I had hit the wall.

 

After chance contact with Martin Ongley from SAAA he offered to review my notes and pointed out that my allocations were to ridged. After a rework and another review Martin he agreed but advised that I run it by CASA - Martin even gave me the names of the people to speak too. I found both of the representatives professional in there approach to my work which eased my concerns.

 

There is some risk but I had enough confidence to put the cash on the counter.

 

Will it fly as a ultralight, most likely but SAAA will be guiding me through the process. Most builders are seeking mentors and the organization that offers that will create solutions and they tend to rise to the top in any market.

 

 

[metalman]

I would not be building the kit I chose if it was not for the help of SAAA. As the original intent was to fly it as a ultralight, RAA was approached to evaluate the kit before importation but the reply was a disappointing NO QUICK BUILD - flat pack or nothing. When I ask to see a discuss the evaluation I receive a curse reply in simple terms was if you are not happy see CASA. It took many months of work to prepare an evaluation but I could not get to the magic 49% - it was close and the kit visually was no more advanced than a RV quick build - I had hit the wall.After chance contact with Martin Ongley from SAAA he offered to review my notes and pointed out that my allocations were to ridged. After a rework and another review Martin he agreed but advised that I run it by CASA - Martin even gave me the names of the people to speak too. I found both of the representatives professional in there approach to my work which eased my concerns.

 

There is some risk but I had enough confidence to put the cash on the counter.

 

Will it fly as a ultralight, most likely but SAAA will be guiding me through the process. Most builders are seeking mentors and the organization that offers that will create solutions and they tend to rise to the top in any market.

As far as I know once you've registered and flown in VH experimental you could legally go into RAA reg as long as it meets the weight and stall requirements ,

As for the SAAA ,I'm a member but (although it would be helpful with the right people around you) you don't have to be a member to build a plane, I didn't join till it became a cheaper option to join and do the MPC . I now have some fuel cards via SAAA and have to maintain my membership to enjoy the benefits , besides the mag is pretty good

 

Matty,

 

 

[rgmwa]

Just curious. What is the 49%? I assume that is the maximum allowable factory built portion?

 

rgmwa

 

 

[metalman]

Just curious. What is the 49%? I assume that is the maximum allowable factory built portion?rgmwa

It's normal written as 51% owner built! it's just a way of stating the major portion has been built by the builder .

The FAA had a go at the kit suppliers a while back to determine if they were really leaving 51% for the builder to do, which does make you wonder when you see how much is done in the quick build option with some kits,

 

Matty

 

 

[rgmwa]

Thanks MM. I've wondered about some of the QB kits too. Hard to see how they make the 51% to go criterion.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Soleair]

the rego is less ( one fee for life ) and there's not as many restrictions on the use of the aircraft, RAA comes with a few restrictions along with a yearly cost of rego and RAA membership

As regards that specific point, if I register as a 19 xxxx under section 95.55, what would my annual rego fee be? Are you saying that I'd pay more if I go with RAA rather than SAAA? I assumed that if my aircraft satisfied the 95.55 minima, then it would cost the same annually to register. As to the annual membership fee of RAA, yes, $210 is a lot as a builder (though I understand I can join as a non-flying member up to completion). But the 200 odd bucks with RAA does include 3rd party insurance while flying. Does SAAA offer a similar scheme?

 

I can understand that it would be great to attend regularly a local SAAA chapter meeting, both for socialising and for practical assistance with the build. But my nearest chapter is 150km away, and a round trip of 300km is quite an ongoing commitment.

 

There is the further point that SAAA have not replied to my initial enquiry, which does not bode well for future enquiries should I join them.

 

I'm looking to convert my lapsed UK PPL to whatever I need to fly locally. I'm not interested in flying beyond my local area, though I would like to fly to Narromine for Ausfly next time it's held there. So only looking for minimal licencing & aircraft rego. I'm told as a sub-600kg MTOW with 36 mph stall & 27kg/sq.m wing loading (anyone spot the mixed units there?) I can modify & maintain the aircraft myself, which suits me fine.

 

If I have this wrong, could someone kindly explain the difference in initial registering & ongoing operation under RAA & SAAA? Many thanks.

 

Bruce

 

 

[metalman]

Bruce I can only answer as to my experiance, the rego for my plane was $135 for life , and my costs for a PPL is a medical every two years $200 approx. I have it insured with QBE via the SAAA which includes flight risk ( as well as my RV6 I'm building for ground risk) for $1600 per year ,this also has a PL component .

 

The main reason I went with VH experimental was after I'd been told by Steve Bell that I would have no issues registering my aircraft ( it uses some components from a certified airframe) I came to rego time only to be told RAA wouldn't rego it,,,so as there's provision in the regs to go VH ,and I had a PPL , I went that way, and to be honest I much prefer having it in GA , maybe one day if I think of selling it I may put it into RAA reg but for now I'm lovin XWV , I can do all my own maintenance, and for me personally I'm happier not being a part of RAA , possibly in the future but for now I'm happy,

 

Good luck with the UK PPL ,and if your in the Melbourne area I'd be happy to meet up and say g'day sometime,

 

Matty

 

 

[rgmwa]

I am in much the same situation as MM, being a PPL holder and building a VH registered aircraft. I'm also an SAAA member, and have insurance through QBE. Although my plane could be registered with RAA, I don't have an RAA certificate so it clearly makes more sense for me to go VH. That allows me to maintain the plane, sign off the annuals, access controlled airspace, and only pay a one-off registration fee. If you just want to fly locally and have no need to enter controlled airspace, then there may be no compelling reason to go VH. If the deciding factor is registration and insurance costs, then it should be easy enough to work out which is cheaper. However, if I had a UK PPL I'd be tempted to convert it to an Australian PPL to retain the piloting privileges, but it really depends on what your priorities are.

 

rgmwa