Plane Crash Barossa Valley 26/6

[Guest ozzie]

ok maybe this way. why don't raa have same powers as apf to issue prelims?

 

 

[tafisama]

I believe this one will be solved easily.Its only a matter of time when the report will be released.One of the press reports might have the answer.I dont remember where I read that someone pointed at a Mobile Tower.If the aircraft`s left wing hit the Tower due to low cloud which had caused reduced visibility,maybe thats where the answer is.

 

 

[Bernie]

If a Telco tower was hit surly there would be some kind of activity around the tower re structural integrity.

 

Bernie.

 

 

[flyerme]

New

 

If a Telco tower was hit surly there would be some kind of activity around the tower re structural integrity.

 

Bernie.

 

is there a tower near by anyway? Hasn't been mentioned if there accually is a tower , and a tall one at that!For those not in sa. On the day starting in the wee hrs we had a constant med rain that pretty much never stopped all day! The wind was not overly strong however visibility would most definitely have you skimming the trees tops. NAIPS - forcast mod/ sev turbulence in the area.There were large patches of fog and cloud was down HERE as low as 600 ft most of the day .. Just looking out the window was enough to make me throw a rug over my plane and tie down in the lean too. Pea soup comes to mind!

 

I really hope the families ( if there wanting or needing) get the answers and support they require in such a tuff time and rest assured none of us here mean any disrespect ! Quite the opersite! With all the respect in the world we speculate the likely hood of the event in the hope of preventing and educating the reader ,wether a 25 hr pilot or a 2000 hr

 

With much respect Tim

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

To find towers (ie look up the location of all licensees) go here http://web.acma.gov.au/pls/radcom/register_search.main_page

 

Search by Site, postcode. The list appears, choose one, then click on Nearby Sites Map for a Google map with sites pinned. Clicking on the License will also give you the antenna height. See if there are any near to the crash that might support the theory.

 

 

[rankamateur]

It was a 6.00pm national news report on TV that mentioned the tower as a suspect, it was shown in the footage, the same report that named the unfortunate pilot. Post #39

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

ok maybe this way. why don't raa have same powers as apf to issue prelims?

What powers do the APF have ?

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

Nobody. Yes I understand quite well the principle your using. It doesn't negate the relationship between load factor and acceleration. The reason the wing is being over loaded is due to the load factor being too high yea?How can that load factor be increased by a control input if te aircrafts motion doesn't change? I can assure you, enertia ( acceleration) is required.

Inertia and acceleration are different things. I agree that acceleration is required to have a load factor. I disagree that the aircraft's increase in inertia is the cause of the higher Va at higher weights.

 

Let's continue over in the thread HITC has started so that this one can stay about the accidient.

 

 

[aj_richo]

What powers do the APF have ?

I give up .. who is APF??

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

I give up .. who is APF??

http://www.apf.asn.au

 

 

[Phil Perry]

On topic - Plane Crash Barossa Valley 26/6..

..So that I don't have to read all 7 pages here - is the summary of relevant the observations that it was loss of control in cloud? I have a student coming to Bathurst today to fly her Tecnam and she is bound to ask. (I know its all subject to the investigation, etc... but Im just asking about opinions).

Hiya Chris. . . .

 

My opinion ( for the little it may be worth. . . .)

 

Well. . . . . how do you react when a new driving school student walks in and says HEY,. . .There was a fatal on he highway outside here yesterday with a Holden Monaro. . . . and I have a Holden Monaro too,. . . .does this mean I'm going to die as well ? ? ? ? ? ?

 

A Politically correct answer might well be something like. . . ." Well, Maam,. . . .you should be fine unless we drive into fog at 140 Km/Hr,. . . and then lose control due to loss of visual reference to the road leading to spatial disorientation and hit a gum tree,. . . . otherwise, you've really no need to worry.

 

An Un-politically correct answer might be . . .

 

"WHAT . . . ? . . .You're scared of Dying ? ? ? ? ? well,. . . what the hell are you doing with a high powered car in the first place you Wally . . . .?

 

I feel sure you will, as a polished professional,. . . .find a sensible response, somewhere between the above. . . . .

 

Kind regards,. . . .

 

Phil

 

*** Footnote *** It should be understood that I intend no disrespect for those parties injured or killed in the incident which started this thread.

 

 

[ave8rr]

What powers do the APF have ?

What ever powers the APF have I believe that the ASRA also have as they advise their members by email within a very short time of the initial findings of an accident or incident. Both these organisations are an RAAO. RAAus should do the same.

 

 

[facthunter]

It SHOULD, but I believe it CAN'T under present rules. Nev

 

 

[ave8rr]

It SHOULD, but I believe it CAN'T under present rules. Nev

RAAus Rules?

 

 

[facthunter]

The police are designated as the body that investigates . There is an assumption that they would use the RAAus as part of the process but I don't believe they HAVE to use RAAus.. RAAus attends plenty of coronial inquiests as REQUIRED. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

What powers do the APF have ?

The APF assist the police and coroner by providing the expertise regarding procedures and equipment. Drop Zone Safety Officer, Chief Instructor, (both on drop zone) Area Safety Officer(usually one or two per state) and Director of Safety (National Director) all are trained in investigation. There is also a Director of Aircraft Operations that works with the ATSB, Police and Coroner.

In relation to the recent Caboolture accident there was a prelim sent to all DZSO and CIs and APF endorsed jump pilots within 24 hrs.

 

Same goes for a straight skydive fatality/accident/ incident. If there is a obvious risk it can happen again because of equipment design or use it is out there within hours.

 

 

[David Isaac]

.....In relation to the recent Caboolture accident there was a prelim sent to all DZSO and CIs and APF endorsed jump pilots within 24 hrs....

Steve,

What was the preliminary info on that tragic Caboolture accident?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

pointed towards seat rails.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I suspected that ... a known problem and a bloody dangerous one.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

that's not to say it was the actual cause. But word quickly went around to check all seat rails in Cessna jumpships.

 

 

[ave8rr]

The APF assist the police and coroner by providing the expertise regarding procedures and equipment. Drop Zone Safety Officer, Chief Instructor, (both on drop zone) Area Safety Officer(usually one or two per state) and Director of Safety (National Director) all are trained in investigation. There is also a Director of Aircraft Operations that works with the ATSB, Police and Coroner.In relation to the recent Caboolture accident there was a prelim sent to all DZSO and CIs and APF endorsed jump pilots within 24 hrs.

Same goes for a straight skydive fatality/accident/ incident. If there is a obvious risk it can happen again because of equipment design or use it is out there within hours.

So WHY can't a prelim be sent to all RAAus members similar to the APF? Or at least to the owners of aircraft of same type.

 

 

[biggles]

The police are designated as the body that investigates . There is an assumption that they would use the RAAus as part of the process but I don't believe they HAVE to use RAAus.. RAAus attends plenty of coronial inquiests as REQUIRED. Nev

The State and Territory Police are responsible for the investigation and submitting a report to the coroner but , due to their limited knowledge about aircraft and associated operations , they always seem very relieved to see RAAus arrive .

 

Bob

 

 

[turboplanner]

It depends a lot on where and how these reports are coming out of APF and ASRA.

 

If ATSB are investigating, then a preliminary report comes out very quickly, and a pro-active Association would be in close contact with ATSB and be in a position to release the ATSB report to all members by broadcast email, or even SMS the link with a safety related message - this is what may be happening now.

 

Alternatively the Association can do what we do and report to members what is publicly available or obvious from public photos, but remember the Association is a potential Defendant in any PL action and has a very narrow path it can follow. The police and ATSB are independent from "all the people involved in approving, building, owning conducting, compliancing, enforcing areas which led to the flight taking place.

 

When we speculate it carries no weight in the process, and with many heads we often come up with things which, while they may have no bearing ion the actual cause, provide valuable education for many pilots. A recent example is that RA aircraft may be susceptible to in flight damage even in moderate turbulence, and the discussion on Va which is an eye opener. That leads us to two safety options - don't fly when turbulence is forecast (very few days a year), and turn around immediately if it is encountered. In recreational activities this is not a huge burden to prevent an in-flight break up.

 

There are people who trot out the old prescriptive era message of "say nothing until the report comes out", sometimes knowing full well the report is never going to come out and that does the safety message no good and saves no lives.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The State and Territory Police are responsible for the investigation and submitting a report to the coroner but , due to their limited knowledge about aircraft and associated operations , they always seem very relieved to see RAAus arrive .Bob

And that has been a very logical and successful combination through the years, but unfortunately we can't get an aviation based report showing all the factors leading up to the crash including the previous history of the pilot, sometimes the Coroner's case can go off at a tangent from what we need to prevent repeats (or accurately assess what caused the crash rather than the death, and the incident gets lost in the system of that particular Coroner's district files, which I have found are never easy to access. Two of us in Victoria have been waiting for years to obtain the finding relating to a trailer brake fatality where repeat accidents are likely to happen because of potentially three quite different brake systems in mixed fleets, but we've never been able to find out whether the case has been heard, or if so what happened so the danger remains out there lurking.

 

The best solution is for the ATSB to investigate all crashes, and that would provide fast indicators for broadcast to all pilots (before a second occurence happens) and this would also help build a central database of knowledge and relieve RAA of training and retraining staff.

 

 

[ave8rr]

The best solution is for the ATSB to investigate all crashes, and that would provide fast indicators for broadcast to all pilots (before a second occurence happens) and this would also help build a central database of knowledge and relieve RAA of training and retraining staff.