How Well Do Your Passengers Know You?

[Geoff13]

What surprises me here are the number of people who appear to be more interested in reducing the risk of being sued than in increasing the safety/well being of their passengers. I am only a learner I know, but shouldn't a safety briefing be more about ensuring the passengers are not likely to do anything to place the plane at risk and about what to do in the case of an emergency. I am certain that when I take a stranger on the bike the brief is about how to make our ride safer not about the dangers involved.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't see that it has to be one or the other.. If you can afford to lose your house, don't think about it. Your best friend's wife may have different ideas about getting some money out of you, than he does. Plenty of instances of it out there. I pretty much don't carry passengers. The safest one to carry is your wife. Nev

 

 

[nickduncs84]

"For example installing an AoA indicator will help to reduce your chance of a stall / spin accident"

I do wonder in these days of gimmicks & toys so readily available if the basis of VFR flying is being lost by some people. Head outside and fly an attitude not make believe IFR. I assume in light aircraft people are still being taught to fly a circuit with the ASI covered? What happens if a bug flies down the pitot tube, it does happen (I accept not regularly).

 

Head outside, fly an attitude, confirm with instruments and enjoy your flying. It is not a computer sim. or IFR.

Isn't the real question whether or not these gimmicks make flying safer or not? I agree that if you go over the top, you run the risk of being distracted from outside, where our attention should be, but at the same time we shouldn't ignore all new technology just because we didn't used to have it. The facts suggest that pilots of all levels of experience have been killing themselves in stall accidents since the beginning of time. There is also evidence that AoA indicators are an effective way of reducing these accidents. Isn't it that simple?

 

 

[facthunter]

Not sure Nick. An AoA indicator would be a good thing in a training aircraft I feel, to refer the student to OCCASIONALLY.. It's a standard fitting in one form or another in heavy jets but you have a whole heap of possible configurations of flaps, slats and range of weights to deal with there, and it's a back-up, for all the speeds you have to remember. Flying sport aircraft should be more instinctive and needs more awareness of the total environment. You are on your own and don't need any more distraction than is necessary. The less instruments the better. You could fly a glider on a tuft of wool and an altimeter. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

... There is also evidence that AoA indicators are an effective way of reducing these accidents. Isn't it that simple?

I've actually had a look to see if I can find some evidence that AoA indicators actually have done anything positive for the crash statistics but can't find anything that shows they do - do you have a reference?

 

Instead of an instrument that shows your AoA, meaning you have to be looking at it at the time that things all start to go wrong, wouldn't a stall horn like those fitted to just about every GA plane be a better option? Cheap as chips and couldn't be lighter, just a tiny flap of aly on the wing's stalling stagnation point connected to a micro-switch and a buzzer.

 

The thing is, as Frank was intimating, none of these things actually work, you have to learn to fly the plane safely using attitude instead. At times of stress the brain shuts out all these instrument and buzzer type of warnings - watch the video below and see how long and how loud this warning keeps going off and the pilot still didn't notice it - it's a classic example of why you should use checks rather than warning systems -

 

 

 

[frank marriott]

"The facts suggest that pilots of all levels of experience have been killing themselves in stall accidents since the beginning of time"

 

.???? I don't accept that generalisation but hey, if that's what you believe, and another instrument will change that, buy 2 incase one breaks down, whatever you're happy with.

 

BTW nothing new about an AoA indicator.

 

 

[nickduncs84]

"The facts suggest that pilots of all levels of experience have been killing themselves in stall accidents since the beginning of time".???? I don't accept that generalisation but hey, if that's what you believe, and another instrument will change that, buy 2 incase one breaks down, whatever you're happy with.

I agree generalisations are never that helpful, but there are plenty of safety seminars on stalls/spins many of which are online that make these points. Ie it's not only low hour pilots that stall /spin. But as you say, it's a generalisation.

 

 

[facthunter]

The thing that used to kill many of them was "the Graveyard SPIRAL". Stalling is NOT treated well in the flying syllabus, and probably never has been in a general sense. It is SO easy to unstall a plane especially a small light one. It's fairly EASY to stall it too, but YOU have to stall it. It won't usually do it by itself. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

What surprises me here are the number of people who appear to be more interested in reducing the risk of being sued than in increasing the safety/well being of their passengers. I am only a learner I know, but shouldn't a safety briefing be more about ensuring the passengers are not likely to do anything to place the plane at risk and about what to do in the case of an emergency. I am certain that when I take a stranger on the bike the brief is about how to make our ride safer not about the dangers involved.

Good comment. The two are equally as important.

 

(a) You have a duty of care to warn the passenger of an elevated level of risk, so you don't have any option.

 

This link has some good explanations of why, and how if you do carry out this obligation and are not negligent, a claim can fail

 

It's #87 on Page 5: http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/public-liability.41456/page-5

 

(b) About how the passenger can contribute to a safe flight.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Turbo if we have third party and public liability insurance does that cover us if we are found negligent?

 

 

[turboplanner]

The thing that used to kill many of them was "the Graveyard SPIRAL". Stalling is NOT treated well in the flying syllabus, and probably never has been in a general sense. It is SO easy to unstall a plane especially a small light one. It's fairly EASY to stall it too, but YOU have to stall it. It won't usually do it by itself. Nev

There's a lot of focus in training on maintaining the correct speeds on approach, and in ga 15 degree turn on to crosswind and 30 degree turns for the rest of the circuit, giving anyone with a little bit of comprehension a very healthy safety margin around the circuit in most kinds of weather with most kinds of distraction. Under those circumstances something like an AoA indicator would just be a distraction. If you want pointers, as someone said there is a simple stall warning (In the Victa it is a car horn), or the stick position.

 

Stalling is usually taught in the straight ahead position, and a number of instructors have checked me out with power off only and that is often very gentle and a wing can be picked up very easily; perhaps that's to build the correct subconscious instinct into us when a wing does drop, which also is usually very slight.

 

Power on stalls can be a whole different ball game where even something as gentle as a Cherokee can turn into a monster and make you very aware that there's more to flying than sitting back half asleep.

 

Stalls in turns, I've found are rarely taught, and I see this as a big weakness because the additional angle of attack comes at a higher speed and catches those who equate stalling with speed unawares, and they often seem to turn into fatal spins or spirals in the circuit.

 

So there is room for better training, but once that's done, and with more sensible bank angles the chances of a stall/spin/spiral are less.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbo if we have third party and public liability insurance does that cover us if we are found negligent?

There are two forms of negligence, one which I'll call contributory negligence, covered by Donghue V Stevenson, where you forget something, make a mistake, misjudge etc accidentally and that's what Public Liability is for.

 

The other is Culpable Negligence where you know or ought to know that what you are doing wrong, and that will get you a criminal prosecution, and may not be covered by your insurance.

 

That's probably not the legal or insurance definitions, and I keep saying it's well worth spending an hour or two's flying cost to get a detailed briefing on your duty of care from a lawyer specialising in Public Liability.

 

It's also worth having a talk with your insurer on what the insurance is all about, how they see it, what they want you to do etc - I've had some good lightbulb events from these discussions.

 

Doing a bit of study, and getting the right cover will take a lot of anxiety out of the whole subject, and since culpable negligence is voluntary and something you can decide to avoid

 

that should carry no fear either.

 

 

[SDQDI]

So basically if we are trying to do the right thing our insurance (if we have it) will cover it but if we are knowingly flouting laws then we could be on our own. I'm ok with that.

 

It is a fine line as far as passenger briefing after all if you are taking someone dirt bike riding for their first time you don't tell them which body parts they will brake but you do your best to help them avoid it.

 

I find with a lot of my passengers that it can be their first time in a 'tiny' plane (the hornet is big for a small plane but they still think it's a toy) and I find that it is better if you can do the daily without them there less distractions but I still do a walk around and show them the different bits (except under the bonnet they get nervous when they see such a small donk) they often have a question or two. I find with non pilot passengers I do my preflights out loud and slightly exaggerated (but not too much) as this seems to make them more comfortable, I brush over the risks but I don't spend too much time on it as most of them as I said are first time flyers and are nervous enough without scaring them. I go through emergency procedures keeping it as simple as possible because if things go south the main thing they need to remember is to keep hands AND FEET clear of the controls.

 

I am lacking when I take pilot passengers it is something I need to work on. I guess because basically every pilot I take with me has more experience than me I feel like a student all the time lol I find I do my checks under my breath and definitely don't do enough emergency procedure briefing (Old K if you read this remind me next time:wink:)

 

 

[nickduncs84]

I've actually had a look to see if I can find some evidence that AoA indicators actually have done anything positive for the crash statistics but can't find anything that shows they do - do you have a reference?Instead of an instrument that shows your AoA, meaning you have to be looking at it at the time that things all start to go wrong, wouldn't a stall horn like those fitted to just about every GA plane be a better option? Cheap as chips and couldn't be lighter, just a tiny flap of aly on the wing's stalling stagnation point connected to a micro-switch and a buzzer.

 

The thing is, as Frank was intimating, none of these things actually work, you have to learn to fly the plane safely using attitude instead. At times of stress the brain shuts out all these instrument and buzzer type of warnings - watch the video below and see how long and how loud this warning keeps going off and the pilot still didn't notice it - it's a classic example of why you should use checks rather than warning systems -

 

I don't think you're going to find any statistics, at least not in the short term. They are too few of them fitted to produce a significant data set.

Here is a good balanced article which sums it up pretty well.

 

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/Not-Bullish-on-AoA-Indicators-Yet-220503-1.html

 

 

[turboplanner]

I am lacking when I take pilot passengers it is something I need to work on. I guess because basically every pilot I take with me has more experience than me I feel like a student all the time lol I find I do my checks under my breath and definitely don't do enough emergency procedure briefing (Old K if you read this remind me next time:wink:)

You can fix OK by asking him to critique you harshly next time out, and then point out all the things he missed.

 

It sounds as if you are entering the phase where you have to respond to the ups and downs of passengers, be they a person who suffers from motion sickness who spews all over you just as you are preparing to rejoin the circuit, a passenger who wants you to get into an inappropriate location/height/attitude for a photo, a passenger who wants to get there, get home and is aggressive, and what you mention a more experienced pilot, and this can vary from a dream ride where he shuts up to distraction where you have to tell him to shut up, to a case which never became public but where two pilots where seen fighting each other for the controls all the way down to an unnecessary death.

 

I think each of us just has to learn as we go because there are so many different scenarios.

 

I tend to be very cautious about who I fly with and what I fly in, and if I'm a passenger I usually just shut up regardless of what's going on in case I unsettle the PIC even more.

 

None of us ever makes a perfect flight every flight - there will always be some little thing we did wrong.

 

If you're in a four place aircraft and the pilot panics and dumps it on the ground a bit hard, you can remain detached and calm and put the action in its right settinh to the other two passengers don't develop a fear of "crashing" when all that happened was an embarrassment.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is a fine line as far as passenger briefing after all if you are taking someone dirt bike riding for their first time you don't tell them which body parts they will brake but you do your best to help them avoid it.

This is where a discussion with the PL lawyer is handy, but for example airlines don't tell you your head might be parted from your toes by a couple of Nm, but clearly say "in the event of a failure in cabin pressure oxygen masks will drop down; You should fit your own first, then any children or dependants", and

 

"In the event of a ditching at sea, life jackets are available under your seat; you must not inflate them until after you have vacated the aircraft", and

 

"please note where the nearest exit is; in the case where there is a lighting failure, backup red lights will appear on the floor leading to an exit" - or similar.

 

In the last one they haven't added that this is primarily for a cabin fire where the floor is about the only place you can see, and your head is likely to be down there anyway.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

In mineral exploration I have been set down on mountain tops in NZ and PNG, stepping out while the chopper balanced on one skid. I have passengered in twins in a lot of challenging environments. But I don't remember any special safety briefings. It seems we are being encouraged to do far more than commercial operators do when they have a passenger who they don't know from Adam. Surely the prima facie assumption is that someone getting into a small plane with a scary placard in front of them knows what they are getting into. This discussion will lead to me reviewing my briefings, but it don't think we have to live in constant fear of litigation.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

In mineral exploration I have been set down on mountain tops in NZ and PNG, stepping out while the chopper balanced on one skid. I have passengered in twins in a lot of challenging environments. But I don't remember any special safety briefings. It seems we are being encouraged to do far more than commercial operators do when they have a passenger who they don't know from Adam. Surely the prima facie assumption is that someone getting into a small plane with a scary placard in front of them knows what they are getting into. This discussion will lead to me reviewing my briefings, but it don't think we have to live in constant fear of litigation.

I think many of us over, say, 50 have been there done that too PM. Difference is, you don't seem to have noticed that times have changed and keep getting worse, as far as litigation is concerned.

 

By all means do it your way but if you don't provide the warnings the courts will expect these days then hopefully you own nothing and control your assets through three levels of Company structure vested in a Discretionary Trust ... ?