Lockyer valley accident 2/July/14

[Guest Andys@coffs]

"should be" is not the same as "will be" and until should evolves to be much closer to will I'll watch from the sides.

 

To me it isn't the charging before flight that is the issue, in this case the smoke occurred in flight and as we know its pretty much always charging related, unless there is a massive overload in use, and that would be spectacular in its own right because Li(Anything) aren't short on delivering CCA's.

 

Like I said, I'll watch from the sideline for now and hope like mad that when we get to the position where we can only fly electrics that battery technology has moved on

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

I recently had a NO Pb battery fail. The first thing I noticed was that it got warm when charging (even slow charge) It cooled when charging stopped but It died fairly quickly after the first abnormal indications. A friend who had a similar bike kept blowing headlight bulbs, which are obviously due to over volting. He was eventually up for a new batt. and a voltage regulator. Did the failed batt. cause the voltage reg failure or vice versa?.

 

The moral of all this is that I would put a temp sensor on any battery in an aircraft and be able to isolate it. I have had a very heavy Tractor battery (Lead acid) do a melt down in a big field and the smell would have been unbearable in a plane, as well as the heat, so even lead acid can give problems. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Its hard to guarantee standards with home builders and electronics.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yep it's not really the witnesses fault, for all the reasons you say. But you would expect the media to do a little more investigating before they publish dribble. There should be more of a focus on getting it right, instead of being first.

You can help in that respect by sending them a digital photo of the make and model of aircraft involved, along with the correct spelling of the make and model.

 

As for the rest, when you've worked up against a daily, or in some cases hourly deadline, you'll appreciate the need for a completed report with the facts as available at the time, and most cases the inaccuracies do come from the witnesses, and that's quite understandable depending on the severity of the shock.

 

We have the advantage of hindsight.

 

On many occasions I've been asked for comment with less than an hour to deadline, and on several occasions in front of a camera going live and it's amazing how your brain freezes up and you just spit out platitudes.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I witnessed a plane accident that killed 5 people 150 metres from where I was standing . At the inquest because I had no Aeronautical experience I said that the plane crashed and it seemed like the pilot was giving it all he could .Now I realize what actually happened, a power stall. All of you experts need to realize people don't make things up, they just don't understand what has happened.

 

Put you all in a situation where you haven't the faintest what has happened and you to might make a statement that sound ridiculous to the well informed,

 

It is easy to be an expert , but it's hard to be humble ,

 

cheer,s Butch

Hi Butch,. . . with that one, please understand I was talking about just the "Terminology" dogmatically insisted upon by that particular man, quite a few similar instances were quoted in the air crash investigation magazine which I was reading. These examples highlighted the wide variance in descriptive eyewitness reports made by both experienced as well as those persons who were unfamiliar with the technology of what they were looking at when high stress / shocking incident unfolded in full view. I would never seriously take the mickey out of someone's genuine innocence or inexperience because that is very stupid and unproductive in my view. . .

 

Cheers . . . . . . . .Phil

 

 

[Butch]

Hi Butch,. . . with that one, please understand I was talking about just the "Terminology" dogmatically insisted upon by that particular man, quite a few similar instances were quoted in the air crash investigation magazine which I was reading. These examples highlighted the wide variance in descriptive eyewitness reports made by both experienced as well as those persons who were unfamiliar with the technology of what they were looking at when high stress / shocking incident unfolded in full view. I would never seriously take the mickey out of someone's genuine innocence or inexperience because that is very stupid and unproductive in my view. . .Cheers . . . . . . . .Phil

No problems Phil,

probably a bit close to the bone for me.

 

I know where you are coming from.......the press loves to beat up a story and it's always some innocent bystander they use to cover their arse in a report. It usually states some far fetched comment taken out of context to make the headlines stand out.

 

Even at the inquest I was involved in there was an Insurance rep that repeatedly tried to coerce me into making statements about things I knew nothing about .

 

It's a shame these reports give light sport flying the tag of being a risky , dangerous thing to do when it can be as safe as you want to make it,

 

happy flying, cheer's Butch

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

People

 

Note new RAAus safety Alert here :- https://www.raa.asn.au/2014/07/safety-alert-lithium-batteries-3-7-14/

 

I'm astounded that it talks about Li Ion and Lithium polymer batteries! of all the Li(anything) battery's these are the absolute worst to use in an Aircraft and I'm astounded that the alert doesn't simply say the only aircraft these should belong in are Radio Control and only if the total loss isn't going to cause you too much pain! Do we know for sure that it was Ion/Polymer that was in the actual aircraft, or is that an assumption made by RAAus ?

 

IMHO don't use these in rec aircraft, your life is worth much more! If you want to experiment with Lithium Battery's look to Lithium Iron (as in chemical element Fe not Ion)

 

Andy

 

 

[ExJourno]

I had a chat with the pilot. He said this, regarding the battery failure in this incident:

 

The battery was run down due to the maintenance works carried out while master switch was on.

 

Prior to the flight, the aircraft was prop started due to the battery have low charge, although not flat.

 

No due or additional care was taken regarding charging of the battery at that time as the supplier had informed the pilot that the manufacturer had stated the specific model battery was "compatible" to the B&C SD-8 charging system utilised in that plane. He assumed the alternator would safely charge the battery in flight given the advise re compatibility.

 

If anyone wants further details, PM me and I'll put you in contact with the pilot directly - he says he is willing to have a discussion with anyone with a genuine interest about what went wrong etc with the Litho battery used (if you are thinking about using one, wondering now if you should get rid of the one you are using etc, and might like in depth details about this instance to aid your decision making).

 

He is not a member of this forum.

 

 

[Downunder]

LIPO, lithium polymer have the highest energy density for their weight but are the most unstable of the lithium batteries.

 

Correct charging (amperage/voltage) preferably via balance leads is critical.

 

LIFE, lithium iron are heavier but much more stable. Lots of these being used in items such as electric cars....

 

The different lithium batteries have different nominal voltages and charge rates (amps).

 

Without in depth knowledge of the setup I would not be putting these in a manned aircraft.

 

It would be good if you could tell us what battery he was using exactly Adam?

 

 

[jetjr]

There are now aircraft certified (i think) Li iron for sale, reasonable price, big weight saving

 

Aircraft spruce has them

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I am very concerned about the future ramifications of using these new batteries. I have spoken to Neil Schaffer about it and Darren Barnfield has posted a warning on the RAA forum.

 

Battery overheat or fire inflight is something nobody needs, and there has already been one fatality in WA attributed to this, plus of course the Lockyer Valley incident.

 

I'll be sticking to a standard lead/ acid for now thank you......Maj.....

 

 

[David Isaac]

..... the future ramifications of using these new batteries. .....

" ... Using these new batteries ...." Just exactly what are "these new batteries"? There are so many Li variants we need to be very specific here and we need to understand the science. For pete's sake any bloody battery is extremely dangerous in flight if you don't have a means of disconnection and a properly engineered charging system. Try over charging a lead acid battery or put a fault on any battery without proper overload protection.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

This is another case of gethomeitis, idiots being idiots with a flat lipo.

 

 

[jetjr]

Agree that caution needs to be taken, however differentiate the types, some lithium types are not for aircraft use and some very much are and will give some big benefits in time, how does 8 or 9 kg off the firewall sound. Big deal for light RAA aircraft

 

Dont throw out the good with the the bad cause somw dont know rhe difference.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Odyssey aren't all that cheap but they have proven themselves for good safe service for many years now - no Li technology there. I'm sticking with them. Laurie

 

 

[ExJourno]

This is another case of gethomeitis, idiots being idiots with a flat lipo.

This is a rather flippant comment, it would appear.

 

Care to explain how the pilot in this case was an idiot? Or how he was being an idiot with flat lipo?

 

I'm somewhat at a loss to comprehend your statement, here, given the facts presented.

 

 

[ExJourno]

It would be good if you could tell us what battery he was using exactly Adam?

It was a Lithium Ion battery (not Iron, people).

 

The Brallie G9.

 

Can't find anywhere that says it must be charged differently if the thing gets depleted... I wonder about this as a depleted battery being recharged within a car or motorcycle application after a bump/clutch start, would conceivably result in a vehicle fire, it would seem.

 

 

[Downunder]

I doubt very much a hand/bump start could damage a battery. Braille seem to be very involved in auto racing and if this was the case, I doubt they would be used. http://www.braillebattery.com.au/

 

The instructions do however say "smart" chargers such as the CTEK should not be used to charge the batteries.

 

I would be inclined to suspect a problem in the charging system and send the battery back to manufacturer to analyse.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

We must be aware this is a new product type finding our way into our aircraft , and we must be aware that it has the potential to cause us serious problems inflight..antennas up folks !..............an inflight battery overheat or fire can certainly ruin your day, and we need to highlight this problem now for the understanding of all......Maj....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Agree that caution needs to be taken, however differentiate the types, some lithium types are not for aircraft use and some very much are and will give some big benefits in time, how does 8 or 9 kg off the firewall sound. Big deal for light RAA aircraftDont throw out the good with the the bad cause somw dont know rhe difference.

Well 8 or 9 Kg off a firewall would certainly be cause for a new weight and balance calculation in most aircraft !.....Maj.....

 

 

[AVOCET]

Well 8 or 9 Kg off a firewall would certainly be cause for a new weight and balance calculation in most aircraft !.....Maj.....

Be ironic if the w/b told you to put 8 or 9 kgs ballast back in the front .!!??

 

 

[ExJourno]

I doubt very much a hand/bump start could damage a battery. Braille seem to be very involved in auto racing and if this was the case, I doubt they would be used. http://www.braillebattery.com.au/The instructions do however say "smart" chargers such as the CTEK should not be used to charge the batteries.

I would be inclined to suspect a problem in the charging system and send the battery back to manufacturer to analyse.

Mate, RAAus has determined the battery failed due to the charging system in the plane not being compatible with the battery in a deep charge situation - bearing in mind the owner did query prior to fitment, whether the charging system in his plane was suited to the G9 battery and was told it was "compatible".

 

The bump start isn't the issue and hasn't been suggested to be. The issue is, apparently, damage to the battery causing it to fail due to being charged by the system in the plane whilst it was less than ideally charged... or in other words, whilst it was somewhat depleted.

 

This may help:

 

[GALLERY=media, 3272]Screen Shot 2014-07-07 At 2.32.09 Am by Adam Byatt posted Jul 7, 2014 at 2:34 AM[/GALLERY]

 

 

[David Isaac]

It is extremely disappointing the pilot was given far from adequate advice. Is this another case of buyer beware ... It should not be if advice is sort. If the person giving the advice is not competent, that person must decline to provide advice.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Adam, everyone knows that lithium batteries are prone to fires when being charged, charging a flat battery in a flying plane is just stupid. If he had charged the battery on the ground before flying he wouldn't have had this issue. But you can't knock common sense into old heads can you?

 

 

[ExJourno]

Adam, everyone knows that lithium batteries are prone to fires when being charged, charging a flat battery in a flying plane is just stupid. If he had charged the battery on the ground before flying he wouldn't have had this issue. But you can't knock common sense into old heads can you?

Does "everyone"?