Another Jabiru engine thread

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

My theory is that Rod is starting to realise what a threat Camit is to his largest market the experimental aircraft business. You can read it anyway you like but I read it as a warning/threat against anyone using after-market parts on a Jabiru "we won't side with you [in an insurance claim] if your engine fails". Which is fair enough, that's Jabiru's prerogative.

CAMit could also lift a whole lot of liability burdens off Rod's shoulders, once their mod. gets a formal approval. If somebody else gets an STC to install a CAMit engine, Rod can simply sell them an airframe. OR he could offer to install the CAMit engine that is purchased by the customer directly from CAMit. He cannot reasonably be expected to do that until the CAMit mods have an appropriate formal approval under the regulations. As I said, people are working on that.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Eh? for an experimental?

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't want the law changed, Dafydd, just coexistence with some certainty that any investment of time money and enthusiasm won't be for nothing.. Nev

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Go and re-read my post #40, especially the fourth paragraph.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I think a lot of the talk of liability here neglects the fact that while a manufacturer can "disclaim" whatever they like, it means diddly-squat when a case is taken through the courts. It's perfectly possible in legal argument for a manufacturer to found liable even if a product has been modified, just as they can be found liable for product failures many years outside of warranty, if a solid case is argued that the cause is actually due to their original design or construction.

 

 

[jetjr]

Yes for manufacturers, australian warranty rules are very onerous, consequential damages, fit for purpose are strong words

 

 

[Oscar]

Lol, sorry Tom, rant is focused on the engine! I love the airframe, albeit not of Rods design but wouldn't be here without his initial throuput. ( I have been known to rant ) so when ya bringing that Rotax powered beast up Tamworth way, would love to see it in person!!!

Factually false and typically malicious.

 

While it is true that Rod Stiff and Phil Ainsworth contracted highly experienced engineering assistance in the development of the Jabiru line, the basic design and perhaps more importantly, the design philosophy for the airframe is attributable to Rod Stiff. Key points that the entire ultralight movement in Australia can thank Rod for include:

 

• a remarkably robust and crash-worthy airframe that is also cheap (in aircraft terms) to repair, with commensurate advantages for running costs including insurance;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• very competitive performance that can be realistically used in Australian conditions;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• benign if not necessarily exciting handling with no nasties lurking in the woodpile for the unwary / inexperienced;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• straightforward maintenance and the ability to have many things that may be subject to damage from 'usual' operational circumstances field-repairable so one can keep going / get back from remote sites.
   
   
  

 

 

 

Rod and Phil developed an aircraft line that has produced more aircraft than any other Australian manufacturer ever, that has international recognition ( and worldwide sales) as a 'good' product, and that has put more people into happy ownership of an aircraft that they can use effectively for just generally aviating than any other. At the same time they managed to develop a business model that is a significant contributor to the economy of the local area.

 

Jabiru is now the only Australian manufacturer of aircraft with any significant international sales that is Australian-owned. Gippsland Aero and Seabird have both been taken over by overseas owners.

 

We have no Australian-owned automotive industry any more - and it looks as if we shortly will have no Australian automotive industry at all. That Jabiru have been able to continue as an indigenous and viable hi-tech manufacturer is very much a product of Rod Stiff's and Phil Ainsworth's initial vision and testament to the capability of Rod's basic design and the business model they both embraced for its manufacture.

 

Jabirus are not perfect - nobody who owns one would suggest they are. However, before casting the first (of an apparently unending sequence of) stones, show us a perfect aircraft.

 

 

[deadstick]

Woah big fella! I love the airframe loath the engine! Good on Rod for his initial input and I'm sure he's had a few pats on the back in his time. Good luck with yours once ya get it back together, but as you have said previously it will have a lot of non Jabiru fixes incorporated won't it? Fact is for me mate, I was sold two lemons and treated like a lepper! So I will react accordingly with justification when needed. Now time for an ale me thinks!!!!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Jabiru is now the only Australian manufacturer of aircraft with any significant international sales that is Australian-owned.

Apart from Airborne

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Oscar]

Yes, my apologies to Airborne there; they've been doing well.

 

 

[Riley]

Apart from AirborneCheers

 

John

.....and Chernikeef's ROTEC Radial engines.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Factually false and typically malicious.While it is true that Rod Stiff and Phil Ainsworth contracted highly experienced engineering assistance in the development of the Jabiru line, the basic design and perhaps more importantly, the design philosophy for the airframe is attributable to Rod Stiff. Key points that the entire ultralight movement in Australia can thank Rod for include:

 

• a remarkably robust and crash-worthy airframe that is also cheap (in aircraft terms) to repair, with commensurate advantages for running costs including insurance;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• very competitive performance that can be realistically used in Australian conditions;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• benign if not necessarily exciting handling with no nasties lurking in the woodpile for the unwary / inexperienced;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• straightforward maintenance and the ability to have many things that may be subject to damage from 'usual' operational circumstances field-repairable so one can keep going / get back from remote sites.
   
   
  

 

 

Rod and Phil developed an aircraft line that has produced more aircraft than any other Australian manufacturer ever, that has international recognition ( and worldwide sales) as a 'good' product, and that has put more people into happy ownership of an aircraft that they can use effectively for just generally aviating than any other. At the same time they managed to develop a business model that is a significant contributor to the economy of the local area.

 

Jabiru is now the only Australian manufacturer of aircraft with any significant international sales that is Australian-owned. Gippsland Aero and Seabird have both been taken over by overseas owners.

 

We have no Australian-owned automotive industry any more - and it looks as if we shortly will have no Australian automotive industry at all. That Jabiru have been able to continue as an indigenous and viable hi-tech manufacturer is very much a product of Rod Stiff's and Phil Ainsworth's initial vision and testament to the capability of Rod's basic design and the business model they both embraced for its manufacture.

 

Jabirus are not perfect - nobody who owns one would suggest they are. However, before casting the first (of an apparently unending sequence of) stones, show us a perfect aircraft.

I wonder why anybody imagines this is funny?

 

 

[mkennard]

I'll add my 2 cents. My aircraft (J230D) out of the factory always had temp issues. I added cht's and egt's to all cylinders. Jabiru said it was fine to do. My L2 finally got the temps down. Took a lot of effort considering this was a factory built aircraft. Who knows what damage has been done already. I flew according to the POH to try and keep the temps down.

 

 

[facthunter]

My recollection is that the hot running engines were a result of attempting to run them leaner and get better economy, at one stage.. How did your L2 achieve the reduction? One way is to increase climb speed ...Nev

 

 

[mkennard]

[GALLERY=media, 3275]Engine stats by mkennard posted Jul 20, 2014 at 3:18 PM[/GALLERY]

 

Sorry, got distracted by this...

 

http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/grand-designs/ZX9901A005S00

 

Anyway, from what I understand, he put on a larger jet, turned the carby a little and very little at a time adjusted the baffles. Now the engine sits between 110-150c. One thing that's great about the Skyview is that I can download the engine stats and load it into a spreadsheet/database.

 

 

[planesmaker]

"show us a perfect aircraft"

 

Hey Oscar here's a pic of my near perfect aircraft :)

 

 

[Oscar]

Well, I have to admit that that's a very definite contender! (Personally, I have deep reservations about built-up crankshafts, but I also admit that they rarely fail.) A turbo engine for flying in your area would be nice to have, I'll absolutely concede as well.

 

My own dream of a 'nearly perfect' aircraft for my own sort of intended use would be a J250 with a full-fruit, certificated, efi-equipped CAMit engine, correctly-applied vg's and a panel that includes a permanent iPad with (probably) Oz Runways. Maybe in a few years...

 

And that's venturing into the area of 'what is 'perfect?' - it just HAS to be the best combination - surely - of attributes for the owner's purpose.

 

 

[Guest john]

Many moons ago, there were several Jab owners who were having problems with their Jabiru engines & there was even 1 Jabiru owner that was operating a flying school & his Instructors & students were having repetitive engine failures with the Jabiru engines.

 

To eliminate the abovementioned ongoing engine failures, this Flying School Operator had an STC approved by CASA to install a Rotax 80HP firewall forward & converted all of his Jabirus with Rotax 80 HP engines as well as a few other owners Jabirus which resulted in these Jabiru owners now having the best of both worlds as they now had a good structural airframe & an approved reliable aircraft engine.

 

 

[Oscar]

While other Flying Schools / operators have reported consistent use of Jab. engines going to 800 - 1000 hrs with no problems. The difference is not the engine or the type of operation.

 

 

[jetjr]

Are you going to convince ian to work on efi?

[SDQDI]

Of course it is the operators Oscar and now prepare for the onslaught of rotax's failing as those dodgy pilots/maintainers start to fly and maintain them. (Not trying to stir but don't like all those people that have premature failures being labelled as bad operators.

 

Planesmaker I like it although the tyres could use another 10 or 20 inches in diameter

 

 

[mkennard]

I also love my Jabiru. With the engine now I hope under control, the only other thing that needs a mod are the brakes. What brakes?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

 

Are you going to convince ian to work on efi?

I doubt he needs convincing - but that's an exercise for a complete engine certification, methinks. Therefore, rather further down the list.

 

[Oscar]

 

Are you going to convince ian to work on efi?

Ha - Ian doesn't work on what I tell him, he works on what his own research shows to be important. But efi just HAS to come to aviation on a more general basis, and the difficulties that Rotax are apparently having with their version WILL be sorted and lessons learned will benefit the industry.

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Of course it is the operators Oscar and now prepare for the onslaught of rotax's failing as those dodgy pilots/maintainers start to fly and maintain them. (Not trying to stir but don't like all those people that have premature failures being labelled as bad operators.

Did he say they were necessarily due to bad operators? I didn't read that into it. If you listened to Ian Bent at Natfly, the reasons for such variable performance were, I understood, quite clearly explained. Yes, the savvy of operators varies a good bit, and Jab engines do not tolerate lean mixture or less-than-good handling, but those things are only part of the picture. Leaving service bulletin compliance till it is overdue doesn't help either. We STILL do not have a full statistical data base to allow any real comparison between failure rates of any of the available engines; it's all hearsay and anecdote; but I would not argue that Jab engines achieve the same average life as the 912 series.

 

I for one am thoroughly tired of this subject; if you have a beef in relation to a Jab engine, go and do something about it. Whingeing is hardly constructive. Me, I'd rather think about how to help Ian Bent get his modifications formally approved.