MH17

[Skee]

A Malaysian Airlinbes plane shot down over Ukraine

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

 

May the 295 souls rest in peace.

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

MH17 was flying on a FAA approved flight path, north of the "disputed territories".

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

in russian

 

 

 

[facthunter]

It was flying a "Great Circle" track which is direct. (Shortest distance between two points, on the globe). Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

I cannot believe someone believed it was safe to overfly directly over a war zone where multiple aircraft have been downed by SAM's in the recent past. Especially the fact that those doing the shooting were not government forces and obviously lack any form of IFF technology. All in the name of a few dollars in fuel and time. I hope a very long jail term awaits those involved.........

 

RIP

 

 

[PA.]

Close call. From a friends Facebook page.

 

 

 

[dutchroll]

I suspect IFF technology would not have made a lot of difference. They would have known it was at a cruising altitude typical for airlines and they would've know that it was on a common civil air route. Although it's not yet 100% proven which side it was, it certainly has a strong whiff of "Russian-backed separatist forces" about it at the moment. And by all reports so far they seem to be rather unapologetic too.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And by all reports so far they seem to be rather unapologetic too.

All the claims and celebration of shooting down a "Ukranian transporter" were quickly withdrawn when it was realised it was a civilian aircraft, not surprised the 'Perps' don't know what to do or say at the moment.

 

 

[pete8862]

Anyone able to get their hands on the passenger list, I believe I have a friend on the flight?

 

 

[facthunter]

The Gov't have given a phone no. for enquiries. Probably Google it. Nev

 

 

[fatmal]

Pete,

 

I hope you're wrong about your friend being on the flight. DFAT number is 1300 555 135

 

from http://www.dfat.gov.au/

 

Australians on MH17

 

The Department has contacted the next of kin of the 28 Australian citizens known to have been aboard MH17 and is offering counselling and consular support. We are still confirming with relevant authorities the nationality and identity of a number of other passengers. At this stage the Department will not be releasing any names out of respect for the families affected.

 

A team of Australian officials, including the Australian Ambassador in Warsaw, is travelling to Kyiv to liaise with Ukrainian authorities concerning the recovery, identification and repatriation of Australians. This will be a lengthy and complicated process.

 

If you have concerns for any Australians who may have been on MH17, you should attempt to contact them directly. If you are unsuccessful in contacting them and still hold concerns for their welfare, you can call DFAT's 24-hour Consular Emergency Centre on+ 61 2 6261 3305 from overseas, or within Australia on 1300 555 135. Call waiting times have been reduced to a few minutes. All calls are important. Please call back if you can't get through.

 

You can contact Malaysian Airlines directly on +603 7884 1234 (Malaysia) and +317 03487 770 (Netherlands). The Malaysian Airlines website also has information on the MH17 tragedy.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I should expand on my previous, as well as the point about whether MH17 should've been there in the first place:

 

It's an unfortunate fact that long-haul airlines fly over or near various different countries where groups of people are continually trying to kill each other with quite a variety of weapons. It wasn't really that long after 9/11 before we and many other airlines continued flying to Europe over Afghanistan (in a 747 with a white kangaroo on a red tail) and could look down from the cockpit marvelling at what a hellhole was passing beneath us (looked so peaceful from cruise altitude!). One of the main alternate routes is over Iran, where failure to call air defence radar before you get to the FIR boundary can get you into a lot of trouble. We used to fly over the former soviet bloc country borders all the time before pulling out of most european destinations in recent years, even though some of them have a tenuous relationship with the old mother Russia. These routes and similar ones are par for the course in many longhaul airlines particularly when travelling from Asia to Europe.

 

Airlines have risk management and planning teams who look at the various dangers and decide whether a particular route should be avoided for a while. I don't know whether MAS had all the information they needed to make a proper decision or how they viewed it, but I guess in hindsight at the very least, it has turned out to not be a good idea to fly on that route at the moment.

 

The other point is that insurgents, part time combatants, separatists, etc generally don't have easy access to the types of weapons needed to shoot an airliner down from 35,000ft. It's been quite a while since I needed to know the various envelopes of Russian anti-aircraft systems, but certainly the average MANPADS (man portable air defence system) which is the Rolls Royce of weapons to most rebel forces cannot hit an aircraft at typical airline cruise altitudes - nowhere near it. This requires heavy equipment. An SA-11 for example (one of the possible suspects), requires specialist training to operate. You don't just hop in and flick a red switch. This is a large tracked vehicle with crew, computer, fire control radar, etc. Whoever targeted and fired that missile was trained, and was operating some serious vehicle-mounted equipment.

 

While it's totally predictable that they'd deny everything in the first instance, how the Russians react in the coming days will be very interesting to say the least.

 

 

[Stewy]

Correct I bet there will be some form of they shouldn't have been there

 

Stewy

 

 

[Downunder]

REPORTS suggest that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down by a Buk missile.

 

The BUK — or SA6 variant Russian-made missile — is likely to have either been seized by pro-Russian rebel forces from a captured Ukrainian cache or supplied by Russia, former UN weapons analyst Ben Rich said.

 

The radar-controlled SA6 carries a 70kg high-explosive warhead and is designed to detonate within 20mtrs of its target, causing terminal damage to an aircraft’s engines and control systems and cause secondary damage through fuel explosion, and wing and fuselage rupture, Mr Rich said.

 

Mr Rich, a former weapons analyst with the UN’s Department of Peace Keeping, said the SA6 family of portable, trucked missiles is the only known type in the region capable of reaching a 10km altitude to hit a commercial aircraft.

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/what-is-a-buk-missile-that-reportedly-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-over-ukraine/story-fnh81p7g-1226992904029

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I suspect IFF technology would not have made a lot of difference. They would have known it was at a cruising altitude typical for airlines and they would've know that it was on a common civil air route. Although it's not yet 100% proven which side it was, it certainly has a strong whiff of "Russian-backed separatist forces" about it at the moment. And by all reports so far they seem to be rather unapologetic too.

Oh don't talk a load of bollocks. . . . . .anyone who has access to an i-Phone can download an "App" which not only indicates what the aircraft is, but actually tells the phone holder the flight number, what the aircraft type is, and the speed and altitude / flight level it is cruising at. . . . . the problem here is that Mr Putin has given a bunch of crooks, or at the very least "Untrained" militarists the technology to bring down ANY aircraft which flies across

 

Ukranian airspace up to a height of 20 miles. . . . . .

 

We have already heard the mobile phone transcripts from the gung-ho Russian backed militarist blokes who shot it down,. . . . . they even braggged about it on Twitter until they found out it was a civvy. . . . . then, they suddenly delted the tweet. . . wonder why. . . .(! ) NOW,. . . .apparently there was a NOTAM issued to western airlines, and I don't know which other airlines got this, but ( probably all of them. . .) . . . . .this NOTAM suggested that it wasn't a good idea to overfly Ukrainian airspace whilst the bing bang problems were ongoing. . . . . this is a known fact.

 

After this, the Malaysian authorities could have diverted their flight from the great circle ( shortest route to Kuala Lumpur ) but for some reason did not.. . ..so we have a double problem. 1) The uneducated un-trained militaristic twats on the ground couldn't be arsed to make sure that what they were firing at was not a civvy. . . .even though ANYONE can download the free mobile phone software which would have placed this beyond all reasonable doubt. . . . . . . .

 

2) The malaysian Airlines management, MUST have received the NOTAM, regarding the danger of operaing in Ukranian airspace. A diversion from the normal airspace track would mean additional cost in fuel burn.

 

Now,. . . .I've no doubt that the Malaysian Airlines authorities will insist that this was NOT the case, and that they either didn't receive. . .the NOTAM,. . . .or some other bullcrap.

 

But you can almost guarantee that they did, and decided to use the route anyway,. . .now,. . .this isn't just me being cynical,. . .having worked in the airline structure for some years,. . . .but I reckon that this is closer to the truth than they will ever admit, and I think that Malaysian are on the verge of corporate collapse,. . . .and this could well be what tips them over the edge.

 

The upper management have only themselves to blame, as their response to the 370 tragedy was totally pathetic to say the least,. . . . and we STILL have not got the truth from them about what they actually KNEW about this flight, and probably never will. . . . . very secretive people the Indonesians. . . .but that's just the nature of the beast.

 

A blog from Phil Perry, . . . .I know absolutely nothing and wish to offend no-one.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Malaysians Phil...not Indonesians....

 

In Australia on the ground there is a very large chunk of Australia (The majority!) where ground based wireless 3G and 4G phones cant get a signal.......I wonder if Ukraine is the same......Don't know for sure but I guess it is.....and I suspect that the training for those people using that missile and their associated engagement procedures probably don't include checking flightradar24.com as a definitive discriminator of friend/foe, if it were the process of spoofing civilian IFF/ADSB is well understood and a previous head of CASA in Australia is certainly published in his contempt for the ADSB protocol and its ability to be spoofed because nothing is encrypted there is no common secret known to the air and ground segments and as such anyone electronically can claim to be anyone else.....

 

However I still personally don't understand why in a daylight raid, where the ground video's of the shootdown show that the weather from a cloud cover perspective was zero eighths, why the rebels couldn't see the plane in binoculars or a telescope, such things surely would be part of SAM unit I would guess.....Another example of technology trumping the Mk1 eyeball? civilian airliners generally don't look anything like military aircraft in terms of paint jobs etc, so presuming the airline wasn't directly ontop where I guess underneath they all look alike, I cant see why the MAS trademarks weren't seen?

 

Andy

 

 

[dutchroll]

Oh don't talk a load of bollocks.

Which part of the bit you quoted back at me, or any other part of what I've written so far, was a "load of bollocks", Phil?

I'm curious.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Sorry Andy,. . .I mean with regard to Malaysians and Indosesians, BUT. . . .have you ever worked for both of those Governments at any time ? ? ? pretty much same/same. . super beaurocratics. . . . . and more bullcrap than you'd ever get even working in Canberra. . . . if you get my drift.

 

Anyway, whilst I appreciate what you are saying,. . .this wasn't an Air-Launched projectile,. . . . it would have been difficult for anyone to have seen the graphics on an aircraft which was impacted by a ground based Russian inventory "BUK" missile when it was cruising at FL 330. These missiles are approximately eleven feet long, . . .what's that ? about 3.3 metres ish,. . . .carrying a 700 Pound warhead,. . . what's that,. . .about 270 kilo. . . and the thing travels at around 1,800 MPH, what's that. . .? about oh who the hell gives a stuff,. . . . . anyway it probably happened very quickly for those having their snooze on a passenger aeroplane, safe in the knowledge that air travel nowadays is fairly predictable and mostly very reliable too . . . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Which part of the bit you quoted back at me, or any other part of what I've written so far, was a "load of bollocks", Phil?I'm curious.

Dear Dutch,

 

For a start, I mis-read what Dowunder had written, NOT you,. . . . and I apologise to him as well. . . .

 

I apologise unreservedly if you were offended in any way by anything I have written.

 

I Lost an old Journalist friend in Ukraine some weeks ago, but this is in no way a defence for anyone I've upset, however,. . .anything I've written about the Ukranian situation is backed up by people I know personally.

 

Happy Winter,. . . ( it's 32 bloody degrees here. . . .!! )

 

Phil

 

 

[SDQDI]

:nerd:Hmm from 70kilos to 700 pounds......... We might get a job at a news station yet:whistling:

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I suspect IFF technology would not have made a lot of difference. They would have known it was at a cruising altitude typical for airlines and they would've know that it was on a common civil air route. Although it's not yet 100% proven which side it was, it certainly has a strong whiff of "Russian-backed separatist forces" about it at the moment. And by all reports so far they seem to be rather unapologetic too.

Just as an aside to my previous post,. . .where I have no wish to cause offence to those who obviously have more flight experience than I,. . .I would just like to point out a couple of things, gleaned from what I personally know from people on the ground,. . .and from our beloved media sources.

 

"They would have known it was at a cruising altitude typical for airlines."

 

NO THEY WOULDN'T, because they are a bunch of uneducated, non military trained thugs, given control of a lethal machine and minimal training in it's use.

 

"They would have known it was at a typical cruising altitude typical for airlines and they would know it was a common air route"

 

NO THEY WOULDN'T, For the reasons stated above,. . . . they stated in their press release that " WE WARNED THEM NOT TO USE OUR SKIES. . . " They didn't state who "THEM" were. . . . And then that nice Mr Putin gave them some very nasty toys. . . . .

 

I have no idea if the I-phone app I mentioned in my earlier post actually works in the Ukraine,. . . . maybe it doesn't but surely,. . .if you DON'T KNOW WHAT THE F**K you are Shooting at, if you have a brain,. . .THE DEFAULT POSITION SHOULD NATURALLY BE. . . . . you DON'T BLOODY WELL SHOOT AT IT. . . . .

 

The default position is obviously not currently understood by the guys with the nasty toys. . .

 

Phil

 

 

[SDQDI]

I have no idea if the I-phone app I mentioned in my earlier post actually works in the Ukraine,. . . . maybe it doesn't but surely,. . .if you DON'T KNOW WHAT THE F**K you are Shooting at, if you have a brain,. . .THE DEFAULT POSITION SHOULD NATURALLY BE. . . . . you DON'T BLOODY WELL SHOOT AT IT. . . . .

The default position is obviously not currently understood by the guys with the nasty toys. . .

 

Phil

All pretty true Phil and where we live that is the default position but when you are in a warzone you think differently it might be noble to wait till they shoot at you so you know they are your enemy but it doesn't always end well.

Just another question for those who know better than me, these BUK setups have radar and sound pretty complex wouldn't they have a built in system to receive transponder codes?

 

Also wouldn't the radar give a pretty accurate altitude?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Phil

 

those rules you mention certainly apply to logical unemotional people, but if the world was only to contain those folk then I guess there would be no need for any defence forces because no one would ever start a shooting war because they are so bloody illogical!

 

I'm certain that after they worked out what they had done there would have been a whole lot of of ^@ moments cause they know without fail that what they did is going to work against them, perhaps so much so that the end outcome will now be very different....

 

I wonder if Russia will now quietly pull back support and the high tech dangerous weapons and personnel such that the balance which yesterday morning seemed to favour the minority will return to the Ukraine people and government......but then again Russia is hardly ever managed by the media, they are just as likely to extend the middle finger and push forward with their agenda anyway...... UN will do what UN always does speak long, wring hands and look angry for the cameras...beyond that not so much

 

Andy

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Malaysians Phil...not Indonesians....In Australia on the ground there is a very large chunk of Australia (The majority!) where ground based wireless 3G and 4G phones cant get a signal.......I wonder if Ukraine is the same.... I guess underneath they all look alike, I cant see why the MAS trademarks weren't seen?

 

Andy

Andy,. . . .I've been to Kiev on 13 separate occasions, and travelled all around that country. this started around eight years ago, and we always had 3g coverage on the mobiles.,. . .never lost it, even out in the boondocks. Apart from some explosion damage, I imagine it's t pretty much the same nowadays, . . .my mates tell me it is anyway. . .

 

Phil

 

Oh,. . .and to echo your comments on the UN,. . . .they are a wasteful, toothless and totally inept . . .I hesitate to use the word "Organisation" as that would give them a little credence,. . .which they richly do not deserve,. . . .

 

The Russians were boxed into a corner by the European Union, courting favour with Ukraine.. . . how would any Western power react, if an Eastern, Communist-style autocracy moved in to your area with no buffer state in between,. . . . Russia has acted predictably and hence the Crimea / Ukraine situation.. . .this is a situation totally created by the so called European Union,. . . .and it's expansionist plans. . . . watch out,. . .Australia may be next. . . !! Next thing you'll know, they'll expect you to use stupid French measurements for great distances, like the bloody "KILOMETRE" what a joke,. . .and weigh all your meat and fruit in Kilos,.. . . geez,. . . you just gotta fight the ba$tards. . . . .

 

Phil Perry. . . local member of the Nautical Mile preservation society. . . . . . . ( ! )

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Just another question for those who know better than me, these BUK setups have radar and sound pretty complex wouldn't they have a built in system to receive transponder codes?

Also wouldn't the radar give a pretty accurate altitude?

Yes but despite most people believeing they differentiate friend or foe, what they really do is differentiate friend and others, others may be enemy or may be just a3rd party doing their own thing.

 

Andy