Recreational Flying at the Crossroads

[Guest john]

The future of recreational aviation as we have known it in the past & present seems to be nearing the end of its useful life with the proposed forthcoming introduction of CASA'S Recreational Pilots Licence this year, & given the past & present state of the current recreational governing body. The recreational flying fraternity is therefore entering into a crucial period of uncertainty & unchartered waters. It is therefore going to be very interesting in the near future as to which path recreation aviation is now going to take having regard for the abovementioned issues.

 

There is one thing for certain, that is, as sure as night follows day, recreation aviation is now at the crossroads & the future of this industry is destined to take a new direction whether it be for good or otherwise.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Not another doom and gloom thread:throw pc:

 

 

[rankamateur]

This thread https://www.raa.asn.au/market/ has also told a similar story for the last year or so too, if we are all realistic.

 

 

[turboplanner]

John, you're adding up 2 and 2 and getting 6.

 

I wouldn't touch the RPL with a barge pole, and there are several threads on here where experienced and well informed people have patiently explained why.

 

While there is a lot to be critical about with the RAA, and it is still not anywhere near reaching the successful operations of many other Associations, or achieving anywhere near the safety standard for a volunteer sport, these are matters for debate and new direction.

 

About the only thing I could see bringing it down at present is a run of lawsuits following fatals and injuries which were not covered by insurance, and that's why you see me posting so much about public liability.

 

Relax

 

 

[Guest john]

John, you're adding up 2 and 2 and getting 6.I wouldn't touch the RPL with a barge pole, and there are several threads on here where experienced and well informed people have patiently explained why.

 

While there is a lot to be critical about with the RAA, and it is still not anywhere near reaching the successful operations of many other Associations, or achieving anywhere near the safety standard for a volunteer sport, these are matters for debate and new direction.

 

About the only thing I could see bringing it down at present is a run of lawsuits following fatals and injuries which were not covered by insurance, and that's why you see me posting so much about public liability.

 

Relax

Hi Turbo,

Everything in life has an ending sooner or later. If CASA wasn't sure that the proposed introduction of the RPL was going to succeed, then they would probably have 2nd thoughts of introducing this alternative licence . The writing is on the wall concerning the future of RAA as there are a lot of unfinancial members not renewing their membership. The members attending the forthcoming AGM of the RAA can lodge a question on notice as to how many current financial members there are as compared to last years rubbery figures which were supplied with a Politicians answer at the extroardinary GM .

 

It has been proven time & time again that when there are uncertain internal issues within an organisation, the administration in control of that organisation often only tell its members or shareholders what they want them to know.

 

All one can say is WATCH THIS SPACE.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Dear John,

 

I didn't know this RPL licence was going to be compulsory. I sure agree with you if it is! If, by some chance, it should turn out to be merely an option, then I can't see where the change is going to come from ? So what if the RAA drops a thousand or two members, who cares? I'm certain there will always be a regulatory overseeing organisation. Surely you're not saying that there will be NO recreational aviation?.....

 

 

[Camel]

CASA introduced the medical that was going to allow PPL pilots to have an equivalent to the drivers licence as RAA have, but they made it complicated and is equivalent to a heavy vehicle licence and almost the same as a Class 2 medical, probably only major difference it can be done by any doctor but a class 2 can only be done by a DAME. So when you get a RPL you will need an upgraded medical, bear in mind, in HGFA you need a equivalent class 2 medical pass to hold a passenger endorsement for trikes as I remember.

 

The RPL may make it a little easier for a RAA pilot certificate holder to progress to GA and get a medical and have access to control airspace and GA planes.

 

My point is the medical is an issue for a lot of people and the cost of operating GA planes, so these factors are not going to make everyone rush out and get an RPL unless they have the need.

 

I think CASA are trying to justify their existence as GA is dying due to high costs associated with Avgas, and the need to phase out leaded Avgas, the ageing aircraft issues including SIDS for Cessna's and Piper will surely bring out a similar program.

 

A few years ago GA schools did not care about RAA but now they are coming on board, LAME's did not care either but now they are chasing RAA work and probably pushing CASA harder to regulate RAA better to get more buisness.

 

My personal opinion is if you want control airspace or bigger heavier planes go get a PPL and don't try to turn RAA into GA as the costs will escalate.

 

I am finding most successful aero clubs are getting rid of their old GA planes and replacing them with RAA types, those that have old Cessnas are worried about future costs.

 

 

[Peter008]

This thread is interesting and I wonder how many people will be in a similar position to what I find myself in. I travel quite a deal for work and prefer to fly the longer distances rather that drive. I am an RAA pilot.

 

In North Qld there is a corridore around Townsville airspace that is probably bad on most days and dangerous on some, other than very good days. Often it is not passable due to fog or low cloud until later in the morning.

 

I am seriously considering advancing to GA using section 61 just to be able to pass through the controlled airspace. I still will keep the RA plane and membership just fly more convienently.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Have you ever thought that CASA sees that the GA curse is being introduced into RAA [via failed GA operators migrating into RAA] and RPL is one way to keep it from injecting and further destroying the RAA?

 

 

[Peter008]

Quite extreme thinking perhaps FT. I doubt there is a conspiracy occurring through it all.

 

 

[Camel]

This thread is interesting and I wonder how many people will be in a similar position to what I find myself in. I travel quite a deal for work and prefer to fly the longer distances rather that drive. I am an RAA pilot.In North Qld there is a corridore around Townsville airspace that is probably bad on most days and dangerous on some, other than very good days. Often it is not passable due to fog or low cloud until later in the morning.

 

I am seriously considering advancing to GA using section 61 just to be able to pass through the controlled airspace. I still will keep the RA plane and membership just fly more convienently.

You should do your PPL and be done with it. Flying to and from work will be a problem with weather, as they say

 

" Time to spare travel by air "

 

 

[facthunter]

Time to spare, fly VFR. The RPL has been mucked up. It wasn't the idea of the CASA either. Most of the effort was put in by SAAA. GA is expensive. A new basic plane is about $280,000 minimum. The advantage of RAAus rules is/was you can maintain YOUR plane (if you want to. You are supposed to know or get to know HOW. You get dispensations for less privileges. Only carry ONE pax who consents to ride, knowing the reduction of requirements relating to the aeroplane.

 

CASA hives off responsibility to the RAAus and tries to get out of it's liability to do it's job of surveillance and audit. It would logically follow that it cannot just expect this without assistance and indemnification, for the designated organisation.. I believe you can't contract out of a responsibility placed upon you by act of the Parliament, or any other common law.

 

People keep mentioning CASA taking over the RAAus. I cannot see them wanting to do that BUT who knows? You can be sure there was/is a lot of opposition from the rest of the Industry that has its roots in GA but is dying anyhow. People who fly for fun aren't rich enough in most cases to fly other than by something like RAAus rules. Other countries have equivalents. I can't see us just withdrawing the privilege mainly because some non interested people running the show can't get their heads around something built by "the man in the street" to coin a phrase. The situation we have experienced for the last 6 years or so has not been fair or reasonable. Keeping planes on the ground as a means of making flying more safe isn't ON. There is NO logic in that. It is an ATTACK on the movement. Nev

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

in HGFA you need a equivalent class 2 medical pass to hold a passenger endorsement for trikes as I remember.

That used to be the case but I believe its now changed to the same private motor vehicle drivers licence standard as RAAus

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Camel]

That used to be the case but I believe its now changed to the same private motor vehicle drivers licence standard as RAAusCheers

 

John

You are right, it has changed. I looked up ops manual. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

[timb]

Ref the Recreational Pilot Licence. It was never intended to replace or come into conflict with the RAAus Pilot Certificate.

 

The RPL does NOT entitle the holder to fly an RAAus-registered aircraft anymore then a PPL does - the only way to legally pilot an RAAus aircraft is to hold an RAAus Pilot Certificate.

 

 

 

It is not new by any means and came about as a result of GA organisations' (yes Nev, the SAAA being one of them) requests for an avenue for continued GA flying when a Class 2 failure occurred. Nothing to do with RAAus at all, except arguing to the precedent set by RAAus' medical standards not causing all their aircraft to fall out of the air due to pilot incapacitation.

 

 

 

It went to the Flying Ops subcommittee of the Regulatory Review Panel (you know, the one that's now nearing 30 years of quickly & simply rewriting the rules) and was near introduction in 2007. However, as is now the norm with new CASA regs, it got swept up into the Part 61 suite rewrite which is why it is only now surfacing. And as all things designed by committee, it does not achieve what its initial proponents set out to do. The "Drivers Licence with extra conditions" is now more onerous in places than a Class 2, and can be marked "Review by CASA" - the stamp of doom.

 

 

[68volksy]

There are now 4 students at the Goulburn/Canberra school doing their RPL. Most are keeping their RA but with Canberra and Sydney so close and the comfort of heavier aircraft they seem to have simply thought "why not". At least 2 who were doing PPL have taken the drivers licence medical option and are going RPL. I'll be one more going down the RPL path as i've never bothered taking PPL test and with having passed my GFPT i'll get the RPL. Then I can go flying any day of the week in any GA aircraft I feel comfortable flying without needing to try and book the training aircraft on a day the instructor is working to sign me off (which is utterly impossible). 25 miles gets me a fair way on a nice day and the navs etc. can be ticked off over time.

 

It's put a smile on my dial.

 

 

[coljones]

There are now 4 students at the Goulburn/Canberra school doing their RPL. Most are keeping their RA but with Canberra and Sydney so close and the comfort of heavier aircraft they seem to have simply thought "why not". At least 2 who were doing PPL have taken the drivers licence medical option and are going RPL. I'll be one more going down the RPL path as i've never bothered taking PPL test and with having passed my GFPT i'll get the RPL. Then I can go flying any day of the week in any GA aircraft I feel comfortable flying without needing to try and book the training aircraft on a day the instructor is working to sign me off (which is utterly impossible). 25 miles gets me a fair way on a nice day and the navs etc. can be ticked off over time.It's put a smile on my dial.

You can fly PPL with a drivers licence medical. It is very quiet out there in CASA land wrt part 61 and CASA may change its mind, yet again. I would keep on heading towards the PPL until things change. If you have been well trained in RA then the conversion to GA and GFPT or direct to PPL in minimum time is very achievable. You might have to hunt out around the GA FTFs but you might also find a GA FTF with an enlightened attitude to RA on your first enquiry.

 

 

[coljones]

I may have spoken too soon about Part 61

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/avsafety

 

"

 

AvSafety seminars information

 

CASA Aviation Safety Advisors will be delivering a new series of AvSafety seminarsLicensing Regulation Update in the second half of 2014.

 

Seminars will include;

 

• Information pertaining to your new Part 61 Flight Crew Licence commencing 01 September 2014. The information will include, look, structure, details, transition arrangements and resources to help you understand your new Part 61 flight crew licence.
   
   
  
• The latest information on the regulatory reform process. This will include the next phase of Regulation Reform, how to find information, what might affect you and what you need to know.
   
   
  
• Information about the new interactive education programs and resources available online to help keep you safe in the air and on the ground. This includes the new and revised Visual Flight Rules Guide, and the updated and improved On-Track interactive guide to operating in and around controlled airspace.
   
   
  

 

 

Aero clubs and other aviation organisation are welcome to run Aviation Safety Seminars with ASAs presenting, however CASA will not be financially supporting the events beyond reasonable operating costs.

 

It will be an opportunity for shared discussions on operator and individual obligations and opportunities to ask questions and raise issues relating to regulatory change.

 

Registration for AvSafety seminars is through the CASA Learning Management System, AviationWorx. Create your own account. Attendance is free.

 

Demonstrate your professionalism and safety culture, attend a CASA AvSafety seminar in 2014.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Like a few have said above, I'd be interested in picking up an RPL but would not give up my RA Membership, Pilot Cert or RA aircraft. But, it would be fun to occasionally fly a Piper or some of the GA Experimental stuff.

 

The RPL drivers licence medical has been totally screwed by the CASA AvMed people who resent it totally as it may do there DAME mates out of very lucrative business and AvMed people the power of life and death over private aviators flying careers. As also mentioned above, the RPL medical is more difficult than a Class 2 unless you are in top medical condition and could breeze through a Class 2. It is in no way suitable for anyone who wants to fly with a less than Class 2 standard medical condition.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

The only advantage of the RPL is the ability to fly in CTA, it's only a matter of time before we in the RAA will be granted that privilege after the correct training.

 

 

[turboplanner]

On what basis do you say that?

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Reference one of the articles written in our Sport Pilot magazine by the CEO or Tech Manager from memory of few months ago stating that they we're looking at incorporating CTA approval into the ops manual at some stage, no time line given though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Given the many threads on radio procedure, circuit procedure, fuel management, situational awareness and EFATO skills, it could be some time.

 

 

[facthunter]

The problem is IF you have ever had a test for some "condition" (and if you are sensible you would do that, If you are a "cautious" pilot who doesn't chance it)..... even if the test is CLEAR, you now have a record on your medical history, so no TICKS No RPL. You would have no problem with a car or heavy vehicle licence once you worked your way through the necessary follow up tests . So back to a class 2 or even ONE. There is a likelihood you could meet class one but FAIL the RPL Disappointing if you expected anything SENSIBLE. Nev

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

I know, not holding my breathe, may just have to do my Australian class 2 medical on my next renewal