jabiru down brisbane

[turboplanner]

Do any of these people who are continually throwing Jabs into the ground also have Rotax aircraft maintained by the SAME personal? There has to be some reason why so many people have a good run out of their Jabs but the Vocal Minority don't.

If you go back through Pilot Notes, you'll see the numbers of forced landings which have been reported (and not all have) for Jabiru and Rotax engines, and you can easily draw your own conclusions. Stories about "my aircraft", or "the aircraft in this area" are not as reliable as official reports on hundreds of aircraft.

 

In this particular case, if the cause was fuel exhaustion, that's no cause to comment on the quality of the engine, but on the culture and training of the FTF, instructor and student.

 

There are a surprising number of fuel exhaustions in training over the years, and I'd suggest it is a Human Factors issue with the aircraft expected to churn through three or four students before a refill, rather than a dipstick check before each flight. The J170 gauge is notoriously changeable and at times I found it under reading, and other times over reading, and always used a piece of broom handle, but then found the wing tanks are so shallow that if you are on the slightest angle you get an exaggerated indication on the stick.

 

 

[jetjr]

Maybe the push behind recent rants from Rod.

 

The concept that someone is an L2 and that somehow makes them competent and do good work is laughable.

 

People who continually knock the brand need to be careful what they are trying to achieve, your just going to damage the brand and the thousands of owners, majority who are happy.

 

The fact this is being discussed in an accident thread where one ran out of fuel supports this

 

Don, not the first time youve weighed in to anti Jabiru debates, you have the respect of many here, dont give it up so easily. Writing letter to board regarding issues not fully understood and letting personal opinions alter professional decisions is the way of previous management we all agree best left behind.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Well, dang - and here's me, with an ice-cream container, a paddlepop stick, a litre of LC3600 and some e-glass all ready to go...

Oscar, are you saying that Jabs are built using E-glass? If so do you have any idea why? Given the superior strength, stiffness, temperature stability and corrosive (capillary) resistance of S-glass I would have thought that would be the minimum used in an aircraft application. Surely the 'very average' quality general purpose E-glass would only be used in aircraft in areas of extreme curvature where no other fibre is flexible enough?

 

 

[Oscar]

HITC, it was a tongue-in-cheek joke... it is critically important (though technically not difficult) to use the correct laminate with the correct weave orientation, the correct scarfing ratio, the correct prep, application conditions and post-application temp. control etc. And to make test coupons and test the buggers..

 

However, all of that is manageable for a Jab. airframe without having an extensive facility, just a decently set-up one, IF you do the job properly. That is the underlying point I was hinting at. In the early days of Jabiru, Rod Stiff would fly out to (at least some) crashes, e.g. beach overturns and do things up to and including replacement/significant repairs to the fin ( I believe) on the spot. When we replaced the fin on our ST1 with a UL450 fin (and rudder), I made up a fancy adjustable jig specifically for that purpose, and have tested the resultant new fin to limit load condition, duplicating the factory test load condition exactly (well, actually, slightly exceeding it).

 

The point is, that if you have a composite airframe that has been, for example, post-cured to high temp under very exacting conditions of manufacture in order to meet the strength requirements for certification, you can't effectively repair it unless you can duplicate the factory manufacturing conditions. If you don't have access to such a facility, then pretty much the only possible repair is by replacement.

 

 

[Oscar]

I was wondering why there was no fire when the wing got ripped off.Good bit of planning to not have any fuel on board when doing an out landing.

 

I wrote a letter this morning to a Board a Member saying enough with Jab engines!

 

Casually wipes egg off face . . .

If Don's letter managed to get the Board to devote some resources (or even just press-gang some experienced say L2's/L4's into helping) assemble the facts behind Jabiru engine failures, I'd certainly support it.

 

What is almost universally (it seems) reported, is the nature of the failure ( through-bolts snapping, valve heads dropping off etc.) - and following that, a heap of comments appear that jump to an immediate conclusion that usually reflects a commonly-held opinion. What is almost never reported is the actual cause of the failure - and that may be a complex set of circumstances including a sequence of events that, when taken and considered in their entirety, would paint a far more comprehensive picture of why the failure happened.

 

If we routinely had such complete information, it would be highly probable that a lot of chaff would be sorted from the wheat and everybody - including Jabiru - would have a far better picture of problem areas. However, this is really worth a thread on its own, rather than being hashed through here

 

 

[facthunter]

Might work if you get unbiased people who have real experience at troubleshooting. I'm dropping in at CAMit in about 5 weeks. Today is my last day on this computer for 7 weeks Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Might also help if someone eventually got a Metallurgical Report.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Oscar, are you saying that Jabs are built using E-glass? If so do you have any idea why? Given the superior strength, stiffness, temperature stability and corrosive (capillary) resistance of S-glass I would have thought that would be the minimum used in an aircraft application. Surely the 'very average' quality general purpose E-glass would only be used in aircraft in areas of extreme curvature where no other fibre is flexible enough?

I imported a roll of S-glass from Texas and was told by my Au supplier of E-glass that they also supplied Jabiru, who used much all local material at the time.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Might work if you get unbiased people who have real experience at troubleshooting. I'm dropping in at CAMit in about 5 weeks. Today is my last day on this computer for 7 weeks Nev

When are you due in Darwin, Nev?

 

 

[facthunter]

Arrive Sun 24th, OK. staying at Hidden Valley Tourist Park for 4 nights. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

Might work if you get unbiased people who have real experience at troubleshooting. I'm dropping in at CAMit in about 5 weeks. Today is my last day on this computer for 7 weeks Nev

Nev - hope you have a great trip. I think we'd all like a report on your CAMit visit - I know some people are finding my enthusiasm for what they are doing to be somewhat tiresome and the more reports, the more balanced the picture will be for everyone.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Arrive Sun 24th, OK. staying at Hidden Valley Tourist Park for 4 nights. Nev

Thanks. Will lob out and meet up.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'll do my best Oscar. Thanks Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Local radio station 109 Hot Tomato mentioned that the Jab had a engine failure last August ( which we allready new, but not common public knowledge) They quoted they got their information the Brisbane Times news paper. They also said they tried to contact Pathfinder Aviation but then said Pathfinder will not comment.

 

Hopefully it becomes old news quickly so Pathfinder can get on with business without negative comments popping up in the media.

 

 

[AVOCET]

I imported a roll of S-glass from Texas and was told by my Au supplier of E-glass that they also supplied Jabiru, who used much all local material at the time.

I get my glass cloth from Colan in Sydney , rod stiff put me on to them . Jab have there own weave made to order , you can buy it by the 100 mt roll $ 7.50 mtr

 

Colan manufacture their own cloth from imported materials .

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I've got a Rotax 582 in my Fisher Mk1, a great engine but only as reliable as the maintenance I provide, however, I am as sure as all hell it will stop running the moment I run out of fuel. No mater what you fly, drive or use, if you run out of fuel, it will STOP. Now I'm not a lover of Jab engines, I've made that clear, thankfully the airframe is awesome at protecting the occupants. However the engine won't RUN without fuel. I'm not saying that this was a result of fuel starvation, but if it is, it dosen't matter what donk was up front, even jet engines stop when out of fuel. I sa a good Jab bashing is not appropriate if it is an engine stoppage due Fuel Starvation.

 

On another note, is there a connection to the relationship ( financial or other ), between RAA and Jabiru and the reluctance to investigate / report on the high incidence of engine failures, this may border on criminal if there is sufficient evidence to support such a supposition. I'm not making a statement of blame or negligence, however there is enough anecdotal evidence for at least questions to be asked.

 

I might need a lawyer after this.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Apparently, the engine had been ran, and it ran smoothly. According to Jabiru's Facebook page. Which is good news for everyone, well apart from the pilot.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I don't think there's a connection Patrick, the RAA Pilot Notes which RAA publish are a damming statistic which they have published without fear or favour.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Was this a school aeroplane?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Was this a school aeroplane?

Yes Pathfinder at Archerfield

 

 

[geoffreywh]

So, after reading all the posts, it's clear that this Jab engine did not fail. (surprise, surprise) OK, So why the hell did it run out of fuel? I think that I know the reason of course. The dumb PIC (who is sooo lucky to be alive) didn't put enough (any ) in. ..... Isn't everybody , before they take off , supposed to check the fuel quantity on board is sufficient for the planned flight PLUS 45 Minutes reserve. So why didn't that happen? I am so sick of blokes commiting aviation without taking it seriously, WE, who are not dead or stupid get tarred with the same brush, I get so fed up with people saying to me " oooh , ultralights? don't they crash all the time". Well, yes they do. But I don't, and many, many other serious pilots don't either. ...If you can't take flying seriously then bugger off and stop getting me a bad name.........................

 

 

[Oscar]

OK, Patrick's question is fair, but smacks of conspiracy theory.

 

The popularity of RAA aircraft in Australia is - I believe - in no small way due to the fact that Jabiru commenced to produce an affordable, decent-handling, intrinsically safe and competent aircraft some 25 years ago. No other aircraft ever produced in Australia has the international sales success that Jabiru have achieved. No other Australian manufacturer has produced an aircraft engine with decent international sales.

 

In terms of Jabiru's achievements - can I point out that Cessna have FAILED to produce an LSA-class aircraft, and pulled out of the market. Piper didn't even try to produce their own, picked up a European mini-manufacturer product, FAILED to make it a viable LSA-class aircraft. Bombadier has never even bothered, nor has Boeing, Airbus Industries, Tupolev...

 

Yes, perhaps it's reasonable to query whether RAA is overawed by Jabiru. I don't personally see it; if one has that conception, it would be useful to us all to provide any tangible evidence for it. Without presenting a viable case for the assertion, it remains in the area of 'tin hats necessary, and there was a third shooter on the grassy knoll' area.

 

Jabirus are not perfect - no aircraft is. But on balance, they offer a damn good opportunity for people to commit aviation without taking stupid risks at a pretty good dollar/hour of enjoyment ratio. There may well be statistically better aircraft out there, I'm damn sure there are plenty worse.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

An Australian manufacturer who is competitive on both the domestic and international markets. A rare breed.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I dunno about everybody else, but I always dip the tanks before I fly.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Anybody tried to use the fuel gauges in jabs lately/ Before chucking stones (or selling aircraft) we need the facts before calling people stupid.

 

The jab guages are Sh!t, just as Sh!t as most other gauges ive seen. Ive read several crash comics where the pilot invariably said " Geees, the bloody guage said it had plenty".. Its even caught seasoned Instructors out. So dont go pointing too many fingers just yet.

 

The lessons we can take from this are clear, and if I can just interrupt the name calling and jabiru marketing manager for a moment I might offer some tips.

 

Never, ever, ever rely on a fuel gauge to determine total fuel quantity.

 

If not sure, give it more!!!

 

Use ALL the info available to determine fuel status, both on the ground AND inflight. Info such as:

 

-Fuel quantity added

 

-Flight time since last refuelling multiplied by known fuel burn, Plus a bit for sh!ts and giggles

 

-Indicated amount, by dipping AND using the gauges, although dipping in some types, the j170 included is not overly helpful

 

-And my old favourite, rocking the wings and listening. You will soon notice if theres bugga all on board.

 

Inflight use:

 

- Gauge indications

 

- Flight time multiplied by fuel burn rate (plus a bit for bob)

 

Importantly, use real numbers..ie, i dipped and got 50 litres, I added 20 litres, the gauges are showing 65 litres. Ive been flying for 1 hour at an average fuel burn of 18 litres / hour, I should have approx 45-50 litres of fuel on board. Does that x check with fuel guage indications?

 

Over burning is not likely with our engines, but always add a bit incase your tuning is off or she's just having one of those days!!

 

Finally, get a placard next to your fuel gauges stating: Only trust a fuel gauge when its giving you bad news!!!