"Jaberoo" down (Mildura this time)

[David Isaac]

STILL PLAYED TO THE TUNE OF "THE LONG AND WINDING ROAD"

What is that supposed to mean Rick P, are you attempting to insult me?

 

 

[DrZoos]

Yawn...everyone knows one is safe and ?...well the other is anyones guess..

 

 

[David Isaac]

This thread developed into some very valuable discussion, way past bickering and name calling. Why does it have to return to a them and us mentality as you allege Arron?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Not Just this thread.. Every thread that mentions Jabiru denigrates into that same pattern.

Often starts that way but usually self moderates and becomes constructive.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Agreed, but I don't know what the alternative is. Censorship is a bad idea. We are big people, we should be able to sort the wheat from the chaff I hope. We don't have to get involved if we don't want to.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Well, I have better things to do than trade insults on this forum. Did none of you notice that the engine in the photo I posted is fitted with one of Ian Bent's alternators?

 

The problem (if there is one, that has not been positively demonstrated, despite all the assertions) won't be fixed by blather; it needs actual research. That photo shows that research is happening. With a bit of luck, it may show how to improve the margins of these engines; but just setting up to do the research is a major exercise. If somebody has a bright idea, they need to get off their backsides and prove it; and then push it through the process of CASA approval. Rotec has gone part way; but that is not sufficient. In the meantime, I agree totally with Rick-P.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

then push it through the process of CASA approval. Rotec has gone part way; but that is not sufficient.

I will repeat, Jabiru have gone through the CASA approval and yet here we are with the foundation of this thread based on their failures.

 

On the other hand, the "insufficient" Rotec have no CASA approval yet Jabiru owners who have successfully fitted their heads report highly of them.

 

Kind of makes the value of a CASA approval a bit moot doesn't it.

 

 

[jetjr]

Somehow people think that talking positively and constructively about Jabiru is putting down Rotax

 

912 is a great engine, those who can afford them go fly it and be happy

 

Seem to spend a lot of time on internet discussing shortcomings of a small australian produced engine which is still a major player in our RAA market despite the issues

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...a small australian produced engine which is still a major player in our RAA market despite the issues

...and a major player in the world market. Rotax may sell ten times the number of engines, but the new boy (D-Motor) chose to make their engine compatible with a Jabiru mount.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

13 pages of blather and false assersions?? I think not. No fire, no smoke...

 

 

[Oscar]

...and a major player in the world market. Rotax may sell ten times the number of engines, but the new boy (D-Motor) chose to make their engine compatible with a Jabiru mount.

And the UL Power UL260, also has identical mounts with the J2200.

 

 

[jetjr]

Motz, i dont think anyone says there isnt an issue, its just that constantly belting it on web forums achieves nothing useful. Many Jabiru owners probably no longer visit this forum to discuss the issues openly and thats bad for every owner AND RAA

 

For some reason EVERY thread with Jabiru in the title becomes a series of "how good is rotax" how is that relevant!!!!

 

Both sides of this is unlikely to help.

 

Rotax owners thinking all models are indestructible and Jabiru owners flying around expecting major failure and overlooking simple carb ice or fuel problems

 

Jabiru have proven they wont respond to public criticism so all this continued negativity does is damage the brand and those who happily fly (problem free)

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I will repeat, Jabiru have gone through the CASA approval and yet here we are with the foundation of this thread based on their failures.On the other hand, the "insufficient" Rotec have no CASA approval yet Jabiru owners who have successfully fitted their heads report highly of them.

 

Kind of makes the value of a CASA approval a bit moot doesn't it.

No, Pal, it doesn't. For a -19 aeroplane, or VH experimental, CASA approval is not necessary. If you have a -19 aeroplane, you can use Ian Bent's modifications, OR Rotec, OR your home-grown option, OR any other thing you like. I'm doing that with a 582 for that matter. Go do your own thing by all means, and THEN tell us about it. That's why we have the experimental provisions in CASR 21.191 thru 21.195, as explained in CASA AC 21.10.

For anything else, CASA approval IS necessary.

 

 

[rankamateur]

And the UL Power UL260, also has identical mounts with the J2200.

Well isn't that lucky for the poor punters who have a total gut-full of crowd testing!

 

 

[turboplanner]

For some reason EVERY thread with Jabiru in the title becomes a series of "how good is rotax" how is that relevant!!!!

It is relevant because it sets a benchmark for recreational aircraft engines, showing that it is possibly to get somewhere near GA engines with reliability, and so can be defended for use in flight. It also provides a set of statistics showing the benchmark percentage of the demographic which flies RAA aircraft but uses wrong oils, wrong fuels, or incompetent maintenance, which in turn causes failures. In creating those benchmarks it sets the expectation of a person of reasonable intelligence for the safety of a flight.

 

.....all this continued negativity does is damage the brand and those who happily fly (problem free)

That statement carries no weight unless volume statistics apply. A million motorists might spend their entire driving careers without a scratch, but it's the very few who are being injured and dying we have to focus on to try to get it as close to zero as we can.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

13 pages of blather and false assersions?? I think not. No fire, no smoke...

Certainly, a lot of hot air. Some of it going into the carburettor might help.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

It is relevant because it sets a benchmark for recreational aircraft engines, showing that it is possibly to get somewhere near GA engines with reliability, and so can be defended for use in flight. It also provides a set of statistics showing the benchmark percentage of the demographic which flies RAA aircraft but uses wrong oils, wrong fuels, or incompetent maintenance, which in turn causes failures. In creating those benchmarks it sets the expectation of a person of reasonable intelligence for the safety of a flight.

That statement carries no weight unless volume statistics apply. A million motorists might spend their entire driving careers without a scratch, but it's the very few who are being injured and dying we have to focus on to try to get it as close to zero as we can.

The trouble with that, is that the statistics are exactly what we have NOT seen. What we've seen is a small percentage of the Jabiru population - and we don't know how small - going down for reasons that have not as yet been defined; plus a known history of through-bolt failures - which were addressed by a Jabiru Service Bulletin and a free factory modification - which certain parties on this thread chose to ignore - and some exhaust valve failures. I not so long ago was asked to express a professional opinion on a 912 broken crankshaft, that resulted in a double fatality. None of these engines are as good as I'd like to see; but all the arm-waving and shouting isn't going to fix that.

It can't be fixed until the research has been done to identify the real causes. Ian Bent has done an enormous amount of research, and is I believe pretty much on top of the causes, and what can be done to fix them; and if you own a -19 aircraft, or a VH experimental, that uses a Jab engine, it's worth contacting him. His fixes won't become available for other categories until they achieve the necessary CASA approvals - and work is proceeding on that. Jabiru cannot be expected to endorse these modifications until they do achieve CASA approval; that will be the time for people to start jumping around. If somebody wants to move faster than this process, go to it - but the message is, put up or shut up.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Motz, i dont think anyone says there isnt an issue, its just that constantly belting it on web forums achieves nothing useful.

Your right in one respect I think Jet, the bashings dont help. The issue is, for me anyway, any negative comment or request for info, or offering of personal experience is CALLED bashing. I dont believe its any coincidence either, its an old political trick to muddy the waters by saying " ahh see, always just a jab bash" and its a real shame. It does happen, and I agree that there are a lot of useless comments and digs made. But there is also alot of uselful info for potential engine buyers or aeroplane buyers. According to the factory, the engine is world class and theres no issues, and to be honest, I agree for the most part. Its a smooth, powerful, easy to work on, simple engine. But there are issues.

But when experienced operators, pilots, owners, maintainers, Instructors, Flying school's are saying "HELP"!!! We cant just call it bashing and click " Ignore". If nothing else, threads like this should encourage potential owners to research more and have ALL the info to make an informed decision.

 

 

[Teckair]

All the bickering and 'oneupmanship' will lead CASA to 'cure' the problems...No more numbers on the tails No more L1/L2/L4.. All planes looked after by LAMEs and the BEST we can hope for is RPL..

People should have thought of that before they decided to go down the GA Mk 2 on an ultralight certificate road.

 

 

[skeptic36]

...and a major player in the world market. Rotax may sell ten times the number of engines, but the new boy (D-Motor) chose to make their engine compatible with a Jabiru mount.

 

And the UL Power UL260, also has identical mounts with the J2200.

Could that be because those manufacturers, think Jab owners ( those would be the people with the Jab engine mounts) are the most likely to be looking for an alternative

 

 

[Oscar]

Merv, your own experience recounted above is exactly the sort of information that is needed to develop a comprehensive picture of the problems, and from that, the potential solutions. You commented that, the 'best' Jab. engine experience you have had was with the one that ran the coolest, and the whole issue of heat - and specifically, heat that goes out-of-conditions that the engines have been tested to JAR22H to meet - has been been something that many have commented upon as critically important to Jab. engine life.

 

Why engines go into out-of-condition heat ranges is obviously something that needs in-depth examination, which is why I emphatically support Don Ramsay's call for far more in-depth investigation and documentation. It can be for a number of reasons including use, petrol quality, inadequate CHT and egt reporting, cooling set-up. If all the information could be collated, sifted through, common factors identified, ranked in importance and solutions tried and proven, every Jab engine user would be way ahead of where we are right now.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Obviously, everybody would like to invent a better safety pin. They still need to certificate (i) Their engines and (ii) The installation, before they can be used on other than VH experimental or -19 registered aircraft. As Don Ramsay pointed out, there are one or two 912 installations in Jabirus that have gone the CAR 35 route. That's not so easy to do under CASR 21 Subpart M; it's likely to require an STC under subpart D.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Merv, your own experience recounted above is exactly the sort of information that is needed to develop a comprehensive picture of the problems, and from that, the potential solutions. You commented that, the 'best' Jab. engine experience you have had was with the one that ran the coolest, and the whole issue of heat - and specifically, heat that goes out-of-conditions that the engines have been tested to JAR22H to meet - has been been something that many have commented upon as critically important to Jab. engine life. Why engines go into out-of-condition heat ranges is obviously something that needs in-depth examination, which is why I emphatically support Don Ramsay's call for far more in-depth investigation and documentation. It can be for a number of reasons including use, petrol quality, inadequate CHT and egt reporting, cooling set-up. If all the information could be collated, sifted through, common factors identified, ranked in importance and solutions tried and proven, every Jab engine user would be way ahead of where we are right now.

True. And a friend of mine recently commented that theres plenty of Jab engines In the USA and south africa, and they have next to NONE of the problems. Could this be due to the fact the engines are installed in OTHER airframes mainly? Conventionally, as im sure you know, the engine bay is boxed off with draw created by lips etc on the underside to create flow of air around the engine (Bascially)

 

In jabs the ducted head system uses a different philosophy, as far as my laymans eye can tell anyway.

 

Operating a Bantam with a jab engine, that sits out in the open with no cowling, one would think this would be ok? Nope, same deal, warped "egged' cylinders TWICE in 50 hours of operation. New top end at 100. Cooling is the problem, im 99% convinced.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I have been very critical of Jabs. apparent response to issues. But I really want this Australian company to be successful.

 

They have a great tough robust little aircraft with issues around engines that are symptomatic of high operating temps. Some of the good 'rumours' indicate the high temps can be resolved. The engine must be fundamentally sound otherwise they would all fail, so I suspect the fixes are not that difficult and I am totally supportive of Ian Bents efforts to resolve the issues and I believe with his positive attitude he will succeed and reverse the brand damage to Jabiru. I eagerly wait to hear the good outcomes.

 

The real shame of all this current development by Ian is that it did not occur years before to preserve the image of a great little brand called Jabiru.

 

Personally, a simple direct drive flat 6 cylinder engine is a winner for many reasons.

 

Why are my observations regarded as Jab bashing ... I want Jab to succeed. Are Jab owners all that precious that can't determine constructive criticism from biased bashing?

 

 

[turboplanner]

The trouble with that, is that the statistics are exactly what we have NOT seen.

Yes we have, you might not have read them, and you might not have added up the forced landings per year, and they might not be in the format you expect, and they might not have been reported to the esoteric conclusion you or I would like, but RAA have recorded them, published them, and now as a result, the people the members elected to represent them have written to CASA asking them to take action.

 

Those people by the way represent the members who want ignore buttons, call people Jab bashers, claim total reliability, and generally try to throw a spanner in the works of every discussion where people are trying to help.

 

A typical example which turns people off trying to help was one of my posts where, after three years and a lot of combustion chamber heat failures, watercooled head conversion, and eventually reliability, I pointed out the melting point of steel and the difference between temperatures which are critical for water jackets and temperatures which are critical for combustion chambers and got a "funny" for it.

 

I've concluded that if you want to have a progressive discussion where you are drawing on experienced and skilled people to help, this forum is not the ideal place to do it.