"Jaberoo" down (Mildura this time)

[motzartmerv]

Why would he? hes never aloud it before. Despite the country crying for an option..

 

 

[fly_tornado]

First the Camit, then the Rotax! Where will it end D-Motor and ULPower?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Well I'd be tee'd off looks like he has a 'fair way' to walk and he has a 'hole in one' wing.But on a serious note good to see him walk away and no one else hurt, I wonder sometimes at the usefulness of a flip out air whistle or the likes to warn people on the ground of the quiet approach of an engine out landing. I've got a siren which works if I still have battery power but a flip out whistle would do the job.

No, they'd simply turn and look at him. Ever used an air horn to shift a flock of Galahs off the road? Galahs are smart compared to most humans . . .

 

 

[rankamateur]

Impossible, no manufacturer does, may as well shut the company down overnight if you did that.

Not a good attitude for one who apires to market an untried and unproven aero engine to a willing and all too accepting public. I guess the business model has stood the test of time over the last twenty years, if it worked then, it must work once more.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

BS - Surely you've heard of Service Bulletins?

It seems some people in RAA have not heard of Service Bulletins. Or Airworthiness Directives. The waffle on this site about the RAA "advising CASA that there are too many failures of Jabiru engines" - or whatever actually happened - is fatuous. Do you imagine that CASA does not already know? How naive of you! There are mandatory requirements to report aircraft accidents, and also to report defects. If CASA considers there is an identified problem, it will use CASR Part 39 to issue an Airworthiness Directive. If it has not done so as yet, what do you imaging that indicates?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Not a good attitude

Just the facts Ma'am, your proposition that a manufacturer would do so is niave and what I was responding too, nothing to do with attitude.

 

No manufacturers stand up and say "Oh that was our fault" in modern litigation hungry times which is "what's the world coming too" type disappointing but undeniably true.

 

 

[gandalph]

it does not take an expert to tell you why they are failingJust ask Oscar

Thank you Deb for your giving us the benefit of your insight and wisdom. The value of your contribution is immeasureable.

 

 

[AVOCET]

Your not gonna take that lying down are you Oscar ?

 

Sock it to um

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Comon fellas... Don't start the playground talk.

 

 

[Peter008]

Admin Ian - Are you sure you cannot install an "Ignore Thread" button? This one is just becoming a bashing club Vs a Supporters club. Sadly, it would seem that it occurs at every opportunity that Jabiru is mentioned in any thread.

 

I got the "Murder of Crows" joke. I just don't get this one.

 

Please, an "Ignore Thread" option......

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Peter, ummm, don't click on the thread?

 

Just a thought.

 

 

[alf jessup]

If you actualy watched the news and taken. Note you would have realized that he said he had two atempts at landing so the engine did not simply fail instantlyMildura not beeing that big you would think that he could have landed in the dessert somewhere

Deb,

 

Yeah I watched the bulletin and your right, one attempted landing was the initial forced landing approach and the other was the crash when he did the noble thing and avoided the golfers and hit the trees.

 

I sure hope Cammit do wonders with these upgrades to the engines then they will be a far better aircraft

 

 

[Butch]

Rick, this is the problem!

 

I'm new to this sport and there is no way I would fly in an aircraft that has a motor that is 4 stroke and you have to run it like a 2 stoke by adding oil to the fuel, put on an oil cooler to keep the motor cool and have decent oil pressure, add an air scoop to supply more air for cooling. If it needs all this why not produce the motor with all this done?

 

It might fix your problems but what about all the standard motors with low oil pressure, overheating problems and run on avgas not 2 stroke fuel?

 

I wouldn't by a tractor to drive around my farm with that sort of history and if it failed I could step off and walk home, it's a bit hard to do that when you are at 2,000 feet.

 

When I started my training I had ambitions of buying a Jab one day, a neat looking plane at an affordable price. Nothings cheap if you end up C up on a golf course!

 

I don't think it's a Ford or Holden thing, there are plenty like me that would love a Jab but not till the bugs are ironed out or option of another power plant.

 

Happy flying Butch. PS sorry I thought I attached Ricks quote

 

 

[turboplanner]

Admin Ian - Are you sure you cannot install an "Ignore Thread" button? This one is just becoming a bashing club Vs a Supporters club. Sadly, it would seem that it occurs at every opportunity that Jabiru is mentioned in any thread.I got the "Murder of Crows" joke. I just don't get this one.

 

Please, an "Ignore Thread" option......

Are you two so bereft that you can't just pass the thread by? What happens? does something draw you to click on it?......... or do you just want to dictate what other people want to talk about?

 

There is some very valuable information in this thread; why would you want to walk away from that?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Peter, ummm, don't click on the thread?Just a thought.

Why should Peter have to not click on things? That's not how the internet works

 

 

[turboplanner]

And you're the internet's best stirrer, particularly when people are upset.

 

 

[dazza 38]

The beauty of having a ignore list is that I don't have to read the comments of the people on my ignored list.

 

It prevents potential conflict.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think he still fancies you though.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Just the facts Ma'am, your proposition that a manufacturer would do so is niave and what I was responding too, nothing to do with attitude.No manufacturers stand up and say "Oh that was our fault" in modern litigation hungry times which is "what's the world coming too" type disappointing but undeniably true.

You are going to need to be more flexible than that sorting out teething issues until you are producing a mature product, I don't care how thorough your product developement and testing is, there will be things that arise after release, and there is a time to admit you have to fix it. In Europe that meant replacing first release engines with free second release replacements, probrably save heaps in not needing to stock parts for the inferior first release model into the future anyway.

 

 

[jetjr]

Yes theres evidence of a number of things which break.........the whole point of analysing engines and flight data is this is possibly NOT the cause of the engine problem but the symptom.

 

Make those bits stronger and it will break somewhere else

 

Its not like theres an answer there and with more pressure they will reveal it

 

Wouldnt it be interesting if facts said 75-80% of failures were in hydraulic lifter engines?

 

As far as you go Butch aounds like you should be flying a turbine, everything is sorted , nothing to touch.......bit more money and training required thats it. Dont approach any aircraft with the thought, nothing will go wrong its all sorted for me.

 

 

[turboplanner]

He wasn't looking for a nothing will go wrong guarantee, he was being very reasonable.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Peter said this thread was making him sick

 

But each time it popped up he just had to click

 

He said every time we heard of a certain breed crashing

 

We all went overboard and gave them a tongue lashing

 

We hear over and over always the same

 

"There's nothing wrong with the airframe"

 

While at the bundy factory they turn out a fair quota

 

Seems like a lot of us think they need a better motor

 

While some think the problem is quiet real

 

Others think it is just the nut behind the wheel

 

They say "Sam you don't fly one it doesn't really matter."

 

But it puts light aviations reputation in tatters

 

Every time it pops up we sense so much frustration

 

After all it could be so much better for our nation

 

So many times I say 'I just don't get it."

 

Maybe we need to get behind CAMit

 

Time to go I have the baby roster

 

Won't be long till we hear from Oscar

 

 

[alf jessup]

SDQDI,

 

I gather your a poet and you didn't know it.

 

Nice work brother from another mother.

 

 

[rick-p]

Rick, this is the problem!I'm new to this sport and there is no way I would fly in an aircraft that has a motor that is 4 stroke and you have to run it like a 2 stoke by adding oil to the fuel, put on an oil cooler to keep the motor cool and have decent oil pressure, add an air scoop to supply more air for cooling. If it needs all this why not produce the motor with all this done?

It might fix your problems but what about all the standard motors with low oil pressure, overheating problems and run on avgas not 2 stroke fuel?

 

I wouldn't by a tractor to drive around my farm with that sort of history and if it failed I could step off and walk home, it's a bit hard to do that when you are at 2,000 feet.

 

When I started my training I had ambitions of buying a Jab one day, a neat looking plane at an affordable price. Nothings cheap if you end up C up on a golf course!

 

I don't think it's a Ford or Holden thing, there are plenty like me that would love a Jab but not till the bugs are ironed out or option of another power plant.

 

Happy flying Butch. PS sorry I thought I attached Ricks quote

Hey Butch, (no disrespect meant) I don't fly a Jabiru I only use a Jabiru motor. The aircraft is European designed and manufactured with the Jab motor installation originally carried out for very cold climates I just did what any sensible person would do and that's tune it up to an Australian climate standard.

 

My motor thus far has performed flawlessly for 300hrs but it does not stop me from each time I fly, as I do with any power plant, ask my self not what do I do if the motor stops rather I plan for when the motor stops.

 

No motor is bullet proof.

 

I have experienced 5 engine failures during the course of my flying hobby 3 Rotax 2 strokes, a 912 failure and a Lycoming but still have not as of yet become a member of the JEF club.

 

Maybe the go is to have a look at the Jabiru engines that have run successfully without a problem as some of the problem I'm sure is in the installation ie overheating problems which in fact was the biggest single problem Jabiru had when 912's were being fitted under the early Jab cowls.

 

What we really need is less talk and more action.

 

Having said that I do believe that there is a lot more action going on behind the scenes than what is being made public because of the very fact that to make it public without it first being proven to be successful would be suicide for any manufacturer as there are lot of Jabiru bashers out there who appear to not want Jabiru to succeed. The usual tall poppy syndrome remains alive and well in this country.

 

 

[gandalph]

For a safety issue, Authorities stop at the "what happened" point. They then set a performance standard which loosely says "It must do this without fail".In this way they are steering clear of liability.

 

It's then up to the manufacturer to spend his money rather than the taxpayers' to find the "why" and then correct it so it either doesn't happen again, or meets the new standard (New standards, or lifting the bar often occurs after a major accident or run of accidents.

 

We don't need to know the why, unless it relates to a part we service or assemble - we just need to know the issue has been fixed. Many car recalls work this way; one scared the hell out of me when the service manager let me in on the secret that tow bar welds had been fracturing, and caravans coming loose and making their way into paddocks.

If you're correct (and I'm not suggesting that you're not). Then if CASA was to launch an investigation into the common failure points of the J2200 engine either on it's own motion or in response to a request from the RAA, wouldn't they, if they're only going to look at the "what" not the "why", limit their investigation to determining whether the engines and all their component parts are still being manufactured to the design standards they were built to when the J2200 gained certification? I would've thought that the "what" is obvious. Surely it's the "why" that's important. If the RAA (and by that I mean not just the Organisation but us, the members) hopes to gain anything out of petitioning CASA to "do something" they/we need to provide a wealth of in-depth accurate and intellectually rigourous reporting on the cause(s) of the failures. If CASA decides develop new standards or raise the bar, surely they need to understand why the existing standards are insufficient. Simply saying that through bolts break and should therefore be made stronger isn't improving the engineering standard, it's just spackling over the cracks. Is that spending the taxpayers money wisely?

 

From what I've seen, Ian Bent is going to great lengths to identify and understand the root causes of the failures and use that information to improve the engineering and design of his engine. I imagine that when/if he seeks certification for his engine all that information will be provided to CASA as justification for the changes. So I suppose Ian is doing what the RAA is asking CASA to do. Investigate. The expense must be horrendous. I sure hope he gains adequate rewards for his efforts.

 

And before the crabs (not you Turbs) respond to that bit of bait I should assert that I have no financial interest in either Jabiru or CAMit, though I wouldn't mind buying shares in CAMit if Ian was offering..... I do have shares in a Jab and I am very keen to have it fit on the "no problems" side of the ledger.