Recreational airfield Safety Operations.

[Blackhawk]

Would anyone know if there is a standard document available, outlining the Safety and Operational procedures for airfields specifically used for Recreational Aviation operations?

 

 

[Ultralights]

i think you will find that kind of info in the CAR's regulated by CASA.. ALA and airfield requirements

 

 

[AVOCET]

Raa opps at air fields would be the same as GA

 

 

[Ultralights]

but also, there are lines stating that an ALA can be anywhere the pilot has permission to operate from, and the pilot in command deems it safe to do so..

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

So common ownership of the airfield for residents(Like a Strata Title?), or a resource that each housing block owner has a right of use over for each year that he pays for the right....and not something that can be ducked for convienience......either way from a current owner and future ownership group perspective liability reduction exercise I would have thought a subject worthy of some one on one time with a lawyer, preferably one versed in aviation matters, especially if people other than owners, visitors etc, can use the site......

 

Spencer Ferrier comes to mind as someone probably well qualified to advise...google is your friend

 

Andy

 

 

[Camel]

See RAA ops manual,

 

4. Operations

 

• Section 4.01 – Recreational Aircraft Operations Airfield Control
   
   
  
• Section 4.02 – Recreational Aircraft Radio Callsigns
   
   
  
• Section 4.03 – Typical Circuit Pattern
   
   
  
• Section 4.04 – Rules of the Air
   
   
  
• Section 4.05 – Ground Marshalling Directions
   
   
  
• Section 4.06 – Airspace and Navigation
   
   
  
• Section 4.07 – Pre-Flight Planning
   
   
  
• Section 4.08 – Accident and Incident Reporting
   
   
  
• Section 4.09 – Registration and Markings
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Let me run this by others......has anyone ever seen a duty pilot elected to control operations at a common use airfield? I've personally never seen it but then don't operate at places where you can be number 6 to land....... I wonder if CASA GA recreational flyers have the same obligations on them, and if so has anyone ever seen that occur? I can understand a CFI having some control when students aplenty in the air but really? for other times?

 

Seems to me that once signed off and provided with the certificate/license then flying for the main is a pretty solitary occupation (and probably one of the reasons I like it!) so don't really see a bunch of folk walking the airfield poking around here and there looking for someone to be king for a day!

 

See the start of the 4.01 above

 

Andy

 

 

[SDQDI]

If I'm number six to land I'm definitely lost and way too far from where I want to be:happy:

 

 

[turboplanner]

Let me run this by others......has anyone ever seen a duty pilot elected to control operations at a common use airfield? I've personally never seen it but then don't operate at places where you can be number 6 to land....... I wonder if CASA GA recreational flyers have the same obligations on them, and if so has anyone ever seen that occur? I can understand a CFI having some control when students aplenty in the air but really? for other times?Seems to me that once signed off and provided with the certificate/license then flying for the main is a pretty solitary occupation (and probably one of the reasons I like it!) so don't really see a bunch of folk walking the airfield poking around here and there looking for someone to be king for a day!

 

See the start of the 4.01 above

 

Andy

RAA still doesn't have an SMS Andy, and that leaves them wide open, it might seem quaint and a really fun thing to have an airfield with no one in charge, but there's no defence if something goes wrong, and a couple have gone wrong this year.

 

Model Aircraft fields don't operate without at least one safety person on deck, so there's a missing link. Nothing happens while nothing happens, but eventually something will.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I didn't ask was it a good thing (though I have my own views on that) I asked:-

 

1) Is it being done, are people aware of someone being appointed "king for the day"

 

2) Do GA folk have to do this, cause there isn't an airfield alive that has "RAAus pilots and Aircraft only" painted on it somewhere

 

That's what I want answered.

 

Practically I drive up to my Hangar (non shared) open it up and fly away, I don't have a clue if there are 2 or more other members who are there to commit aviation, or just there to have a beer on the verandah of knowledge..... My understanding of others around and committing aviation is by listing on the CTAF as I am required. If there are folks on the CTAF then I fit in to their operations, as we all would, apparently (but not as a substantive answer) without there being an appointed king for the day, at least that I know of....which doesn't say much really....

 

So, to the questions???

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

Two answers:

 

(a) I've seen it done very responsibly

 

(b) I've seen owners and operators who couldn't give a stuff

 

 

[SDQDI]

Could you give examples of the first turbs and clarify the second i.e. GA requirements for same.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Tubs that answer was no more satisfying than the first one......Let me try again....

 

If GA pilots are not forced to do the same thing, then is there any practical likelihood that they would take any notice or in anyway contribute to this RAAus requirement, especially if most, or if not most certainly a vocal minority, consider an RAAus certificate as about as desirable an attribute as a freshly deposited dog turd on a newly mown front lawn?

 

With regard to the first question where and when? If someone is really doing it well, then great......At Gawler in SA when I was based their the glider gang did have a safety pilot and if you did something wrong you got chatted, (I remember landing long one day and flying across the intersction to land in the final 1/3rd of the runway to avoid a long taxi in 40+heat....got told I best be on the ground before the intersection) but that was only in place on weekends and from what I remember required a lot more than just 2 flying participants to have in place....... and in any event was a requirement of the local airfield management committee I think.

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

Could you give examples of the first turbs and clarify the second i.e. GA requirements for same.

1. Naracoorte, South Australia. Phoned up, was advised someone would go out and check the airfield, fuel was available, taxi instructions, boggy strip instructions and a few hours laqter there was an airfield clear for operations, hazards identified, procedures for the day set.

 

2. XXXXXXXX, NSW Clearly defined airstrip right next to the pub, no crosses, no contact information, including at the pub. Crab holes on the strip in the touch down area big enough to take a nose wheel or complete main, holes hidden by overgrown grass.

 

 

[turboplanner]

GA pilots have the same liabilities on the same strips - there's really no difference.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Still not quiet getting number 2 turbs, Andy was asking if GA pilots have requirements to have a duty pilot. I don't quiet see the connection to a dodgy airstrip next to a pub?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just thinking on it a bit more, you're asking an interesting question, I don't think we would know the ones that did have someone in control for the day unless they identified themselves.

 

Just taking into account a Council Airfield.

 

If you want to hire the tennis courts, hall, etc you need to nominate the responsible person or body, so it would be no different with the Council airfield, and there is the Shire of Berrigan case as a precedent.

 

Anyone leasing an airfield would have a similar liability.

 

The person you are asking about would need to be appointed by these people, or would be the owner of a private strip for example.

 

So I think (but don't know) that if you were by yourself then it would be all of the above who would need to have protected themselves by having a safety policy in place.

 

And I think (but don't know) that if you had a passenger it would be a different ball game and you would form part or the above group in the chain of responsibility.

 

For most airfields you've probably touched on a missing link.

 

 

[kaz3g]

You can't have someone in charge unles they are ATC qualified because of liarbility.At best all the person in charge can do is help park is taxi the planes after they have land

 

i once saw a former RAA employe direct traffic and nearly ran a dc3 into a piper lance and he had no ATC quals

You can certainly have someone in charge of an airfield who is not an ATC. Private airfields have an owner or lessee who controls who and what operates at the strip. Larger airfields have a person appointed by the COM or Council that operates them. And the biggest have airport managers.

 

You can also have someone operate a Unicom as an advisory service to arriving and departing aircraft.

 

What none of those persons can do is give instructions to an individual pilot in the form of de facto ATC.

 

Kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

Still not quiet getting number 2 turbs, Andy was asking if GA pilots have requirements to have a duty pilot. I don't quiet see the connection to a dodgy airstrip next to a pub?

Anyone conducting anything has to manage risk.

 

In my example there was an airstrip clearly visible as such with no white crosses and no one apparently in charge of its safety.

 

In my last post, I tried to get closer to what he was asking, but in the way you've framed it the answer might be:

 

GA pilots have whatever responsibilities are laid out in aviation legislation (ensuring they are landing on an ALA specification etc)

 

But they also have a duty of care obligation, as do the owners of the land, lessees etc. clubs etc, and don't expect that to be specified or outlined by the Federal or State Governments any time soon because they all backed out of prescriptive legislation which would leave them liable for any injuries or deaths some decades ago.

 

OR what Kaz says

 

 

[SDQDI]

But in the end if it all goes south doesn't the final responsibility rest with the pic? If he is landing at a new strip and prangs because of holes etc wasn't his responsibility to check beforehand and the same with accidents above non towered aerodromes doesn't it come back to who was doing the right things ie proper circuits giving way to those that have right of way etc and who was doing the wrong thing?

 

I know when I was doing my nav training we flew over lake keepit and they had someone on the radio to answer our ten mile call and inform us of their glider whereabouts which was helpful.

 

 

[Guest Vince Clegg]

Try the RAA Operations Manual and a DVD and Booklet put out by CASA titled "Operations at non-towed aerodromes" and hopefully we'll all be safer.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Vince The opps manual is what we are discussing in section 4.01 the number 1 point says if there is more than one rec aircraft operating at a field (not a training field) then a duty pilot must be elected and it is that pilots responsibility to direct and control traffic.

 

I know I hadn't read that before.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Also note that it says "shall" not should so it is something that is a requirement to be legal

 

 

[Guest Vince Clegg]

So if there is two or more it's pretty easy to elect one guy as the duty pilot. Lets not make life too complicated or we all may as well go play golf.

 

 

[turboplanner]

But in the end if it all goes south doesn't the final responsibility rest with the pic? If he is landing at a new strip and prangs because of holes etc wasn't his responsibility to check beforehand and the same with accidents above non towered aerodromes doesn't it come back to who was doing the right things ie proper circuits giving way to those that have right of way etc and who was doing the wrong thing?I know when I was doing my nav training we flew over lake keepit and they had someone on the radio to answer our ten mile call and inform us of their glider whereabouts which was helpful.

That's a more complex question for a lawyer, which I'm not; I've recommended several times that people spend an hours or so with a PL lawyer to ask exactly this type of question.

 

On the one had you have prescriptive legislation - the PIC is prescribed to have certain responsibilities - RAA/CASA can come after you with sanctions if you contravene these.

 

On the other hand, you can't hand off a tort as a property owner, airfield manager, FTF owner/manager/CFI etc. so you have a duty of care to ensure the safe operation of the airfield.

 

And as you mentioned we have air legislation which has to be complied with by all.