Updated CAAP 166-1(3) - Operations in the vicinity of non-controlled aerodromes August 2014

[AVOCET]

Are you allowed to fly a regular circuit and then turn off the engine , say on late downwind , then glide in ?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

One would only do that if there was negligible possibility of having to go around. As far as I'm aware, there's no rule against it; but if one does that then it would be necessary to land sufficiently close to the runway exit to be able to turn off the runway before stopping; that's not too difficult to do with dive brakes. Otherwise, you'd be blocking the runway whilst getting the engine re-started in order to taxi.

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Regarding section 7, Radio Broadcasts

 

Today I tried to digest the wisdom of this change, but must be a bit confused.

 

I have occasionally flown in to Stirling North (the home of the Port Augusta Flying Club) for their regular Saturday sausage sizzle. This is a private airfield, owned by the club and 7 nm from Port Augusta aerodrome. YPAG is security controlled, has RPT, charter ops, a flying school and a busy RFDS base. 126.7 has up to now been a perfectly workable common frequency for ops at both sites.

 

As Stirling North does not appear on charts or in ERSA, I read Part 7.3.1 of the CAAP to require Stirling North traffic to be on area frequency 123.9

 

Note 1 of this section makes this explicitly required for the benefit of transiting aircraft who may not be aware of Stirling North as an active airfield.

 

Can anyone please explain to me why being on a different frequency to YPAG makes it easier and safer for me when visiting Stirling North?

 

Or conversely, please explain the error of my interpretation of the CAAP.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Regarding section 7, Radio BroadcastsToday I tried to digest the wisdom of this change, but must be a bit confused.

I have occasionally flown in to Stirling North (the home of the Port Augusta Flying Club) for their regular Saturday sausage sizzle. This is a private airfield, owned by the club and 7 nm from Port Augusta aerodrome. YPAG is security controlled, has RPT, charter ops, a flying school and a busy RFDS base. 126.7 has up to now been a perfectly workable common frequency for ops at both sites.

 

As Stirling North does not appear on charts or in ERSA, I read Part 7.3.1 of the CAAP to require Stirling North traffic to be on area frequency 123.9

 

Note 1 of this section makes this explicitly required for the benefit of transiting aircraft who may not be aware of Stirling North as an active airfield.

 

Can anyone please explain to me why being on a different frequency to YPAG makes it easier and safer for me when visiting Stirling North?

 

Or conversely, please explain the error of my interpretation of the CAAP.

As you are 7nm from an aerodrome that is on a chart, I would be operating on the published CTAF or 126.7 if there is none. 7nm is well within vicinity of non controlled aerodrome.

 

 

[frank marriott]

In the vicinity: An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome if it is within:

 

•  airspace other than controlled airspace;
   
   
   
   
  
•  a horizontal distance of 10 NM from the aerodrome (reference point); and
   
   
   
   
  
•  a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.
   
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Thanks for the replies, fellow flyers. After absorbing the 27 pages of explanations I had completely overlooked the "in vicinity of" provision. All is well!

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

The achiles heel in the see and be seen policy which CASA introduced a few years ago is that in a low wing powered aircraft you can't see someone on final below you if you've missed them in the circuit and gliders are notorious for bad radios, so a five hundred foot circuit these days is a very brace decision. Years ago the radio calls would have placed both the powered aircraft and the glider in the circuit with some certainty, but these days I wouldn't trust a circuit which gave a chance of missing a visual of the other aircraft.

If you are in a position to have a collision with a glider, then your circuit really needs some work!

On the other hand I totally disagree with the variable circuit height for different aircraft, puts all the guys who are going slower than me, beneath me, where I have almost zero visibility! Luckily most are doing bigger circuits than I am, so I just look out to the right to find them!

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Yes, the diagram in the CAAP showing different circuit patterns and heights for different classes of aircraft, is a horrific concept if one had all these going at once. However a motor-glider can stooge around over the top - virtually "parked" - until the congestion in the circuit has dissipated, and then can use dive brakes to slot in when this will not inconvenience anybody. Doing this means you must be fully aware of all the other aircraft in the circuit, of course. The mix of circuit speeds makes things hazardous for a glider in a large power circuit, due to being run down from behind; the rough air speed limit is mostly around 80 knots, so that's as fast as one can really push the circuit speed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you are in a position to have a collision with a glider, then your circuit really needs some work! On the other hand I totally disagree with the variable circuit height for different aircraft, puts all the guys who are going slower than me, beneath me, where I have almost zero visibility! Luckily most are doing bigger circuits than I am, so I just look out to the right to find them!

People below you are the problem. Not likely to be a problem with one or two in the circuit, but these days with the traffic out as far as 100 Nm from the capital cities there can be 5 or more, all besotted with the "see and be seen" principle, so you don't see the ones you don't see, especially the ones who turned early and are now under your wings.

 

 

[Yenn]

There is a write up about this subject in the current CASA newsletter. After reading it and having tried to use area frequency and being asked why I was transmitting when I was not in controlled airspace, I have made a comment to CASA.

 

While it may have been a requirement to be on area frequency, there are several locations that are not on charts, but the locals use 126.7 and it seems more like sense to me.

 

If we keep popping up with circuit calls I can see the area frequency getting overloaded.

 

 

[tillmanr]

Howard, gliders can and orbit whenever they like. I have seen them do so on downwind and base legs at Narromine in the not too distant past.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hey you speed merchants... I fly my circuit inside or close to the aerodrome boundary (separation anxiety). My downwind is usually done at round 100 knots but I then reduce speed to around 55 knots on base (VFe = 58 knots) before slowing down for final (Vs = 28 knots).

 

Kaz

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Howard, gliders can and orbit whenever they like. I have seen them do so on downwind and base legs at Narromine in the not too distant past.

If you've committed to a landing at an aerodrome, and have made the required circuit calls, then making an orbit is a pretty wild thing to do. In a pure glider, the only reason to do so would be because you've succumbed to the temptation of a "mug's thermal" after committing to a landing - which is decidedly a no-no. I've personally never seen a glider do this at an aerodrome, I'd suggest it's very far from normal practice. I have, in a powered aircraft, occasionally made an orbit on downwind to wait for an RPT or other "heavy" user to depart, or an aerial ambulance or whatever on a straight-in approach, but only if I otherwise have the circuit to myself. If you have to do something like this in a busy circuit, my understanding is that you should stay at circuit height and fly upwind on the dead side of the circuit; but you do not want to lose sight of the departing aircraft whilst flying parallel with his takeoff path.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Howard, gliders can and orbit whenever they like. I have seen them do so on downwind and base legs at Narromine in the not too distant past.

I learned to fly at a field with many gliders on weekends. Sure any aircraft can do something 'out of the ordinary', but in my dealings with gliders I have always found them very predictable and of course much lower than other arcraft in the circuit, they also land off the strip, so a collision is unlikely.

 

 

[tillmanr]

I am pleased for you Howard and hope it continues. I hope to enjoy the same with my flying in the future.

 

 

[Yenn]

In the vicinity: An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome if it is within:

 

•  airspace other than controlled airspace;
   
   
   
  
•  a horizontal distance of 10 NM from the aerodrome (reference point); and
   
   
   
  
•  a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.
   
   
  
• How do you read this? Do you have to be within 10NM from the ref pt. and at a height that could result in conflict. Which to me says that at say 9 NM and 500' you would not be in conflict, because others would be above you.
   
   
  
• I believe it is poor use of the english language, to have legislation with more than one interpretation.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[Neil_S]

In the vicinity: An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome if it is within:

 

•  airspace other than controlled airspace;
   
   
   
  
•  a horizontal distance of 10 NM from the aerodrome (reference point); and
   
   
   
  
•  a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.
   
   
  
• How do you read this? Do you have to be within 10NM from the ref pt. and at a height that could result in conflict. Which to me says that at say 9 NM and 500' you would not be in conflict, because others would be above you.
   
   
  
• I believe it is poor use of the english language, to have legislation with more than one interpretation.
   
   
  

I agree. I have always assumed that "a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome." would be below minimum overfly height, which I have assumed is 1000 ft above circuit height, which I assume is 1000 ft AGL, so in other words I assume you are not "in the vicinity" if you are more than 2000ft AGL......But I could well be wrong, especially if they do gliding or parachuting....

 

Neil

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I agree. I have always assumed that "a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome." would be below minimum overfly height, which I have assumed is 1000 ft above circuit height, which I assume is 1000 ft AGL, so in other words I assume you are not "in the vicinity" if you are more than 2000ft AGL......But I could well be wrong, especially if they do gliding or parachuting....Neil

I'd make the same assumptions - but if it's a gliding field that uses winch launching, it is quite possible to achieve a launch that goes above 2000 ft; so make it 3000 ft in those cases . . .

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

IIRC the AIP implies the height is 5000' - that's the default height for defined broadcast areas

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Neil_S]

IIRC the AIP implies the height is 5000' - that's the default height for defined broadcast areasCheers

 

John

Hi John,

 

Thanks for your reply - but I'm afraid I could not find a reference to 5000 ' as default height for defined broadcast areas in the AIP - which section is it in?

 

I did however find the following under the definition of Broadcast Area :-

 

"A note on charts states ”for operations in this area SFC -- <altitude> use CTAF <frequency>”. ", but I looked at the current Melbourne VTC, VNC etc and only found this note appearing once , in a very small area right in the middle of the Melbourne CTR over the Bolte Bridge, so not sure where else it might appear.....

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

 

 

[rhysmcc]

5000ft makes sense, 2000AGL just doesn't cut it. It's not just about conflicting with the circuit traffic but also with arrivals and departures who may fly through your level to higher climb within 10NM of the aerodrome.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Thanks for your reply - but I'm afraid I could not find a reference to 5000 ' as default height for defined broadcast areas in the AIP - which section is it in?

ENR 3.2.1

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[kaz3g]

I agree. I have always assumed that "a height above the aerodrome (reference point) that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome." would be below minimum overfly height, which I have assumed is 1000 ft above circuit height, which I assume is 1000 ft AGL, so in other words I assume you are not "in the vicinity" if you are more than 2000ft AGL......But I could well be wrong, especially if they do gliding or parachuting....Neil

Hello Neil

 

Try 5000' (and Area frequency)

 

Kaz

 

 

[coljones]

ENR 3.2.1Cheers

 

John

ENR 3.2 is upper ATS routes. Are you sure this is the correct ref?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Maybe need to combine the two as an airstrip like Armidale 2000agl is over 5000feet