Kangaroos on airstrip problem.

[eightyknots]

I've hit and killed more roos than I care to remember in my old 80 series LC. After dodging countless numbers of them travelling across to Broken Hill via Wilcannia etc from the Coast and down to Port Lincoln I decided to fit plastic stick on Shoo Roos. I never hit another roo since ... But ... The trick is you have to wash the bugs out of them or they become less effective. You could actually watch roos on the side of the road move away off the road in the long range driving lights as you approached and in the day time the goats would all move away like a continuous wave from the side of the highway as you approached.So ... I bloody well know they worked and don't particularly give a toss what any academic says.

 

BTW, cleaning the bugs out takes a real concerted effort, you can't do it by wiping a sponge over them. They are useless if full of squashed bugs.

I wonder how good they are with other wandering animals that could be cluttering an airstrip? ...e.g., sheep, cows, etc.

 

Also, would they be any good in scaring off wedge tail eagles in flight?

 

 

[AVOCET]

Just for you Mike. had two of them, this one a drilling rig in the South East; one of the two best 4WDs I ever owned.

I have its sister for parts . The 2 i have came from Brisbane , Annard & Sons ,they have a brass plate .

Be a fluke if they were your old ones !

 

Mike

 

 

[turboplanner]

The one in the photo was finally gutted to make the other one good for farm use in the South East. Would have lasted for years but my uncle traded it for a Yamaha farm biked which was totally worn out in a couple of years.

 

There were plenty of them on properties before the Land Cruiser and Patrol came out and should still be a lot in sheds.

 

Mine had 4WD on the fly and a combination or low range ratios/torque/tyre footprint that was away ahead of most of today's 4WDs, which tend to sink into soft sand etc.

 

It also had a governor which was perfect for going quite fast over very rough ground where your foot tended to bounce on and off the throttle.

 

And it had a PTO, so you could tow a PTO baler etc.

 

As I remember the engine was magnificently laid out for maintenance.....when it was out of the vehicle, otherwise it was a finger skinning nightmare.

 

Very slow on the open road though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Bird strike with a vengeance . . . but there's a thought, now - could we use drones to chase the 'roos off? They don't take any notice of the wedge-tailed eagles that have a nest on our place, within a couple of hundred metres of the airstrip. Drones with whistles? And if we did, would that satisfy the duty of care? Maybe we should stipulate that all aircraft using the strip must be equipped with whistles and air-horns (all that would be missing is the bells). Or paint a large kangaroo sign on the ground (but don't make it look like the QANTAS emblem, or who knows what might happen . . .)

The equivalent of what you are suggesting occurred at an Adelaide Shopping Centre when they had the F1 GP in Adelaide, where a demonstration was organised around the car park with various CAMS circuit racing cars, and also non circuit and not designed for hard braking or sharp corners, such as speedway cars. They were all lumped together in one exhibition race, and the duty of care items like safety fence, catch fence, crowd separation were replaced by orange plastic flag weave fencing on temporary uprights. They then did a form of what you are suggesting, and told all the driver to put on a show for the spectators but be careful. The flag dropped and as you would expect they all took off at full throttle, and a speedway car was first to the first corner and skidded straight ahead into the crowd, injuring a child. The claim was around $2 million. I lost track of the subsequent process but believe it was settled out of court. You can't offload a Tort.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Look Tubz is a good old bloke really the emphasis being old ... LOL. I know his intentions are to make us aware of the liabilities and risks because some on this forum just don't see potential liabilities at all.

 

The way I see it is about managing the risks. It is physically impossible to eliminate all the risks of life and breath and walk at the same time. So manage the risks to the level that is possible to the point if things do go wrong and you are held accountable that you can successfully argue to the courts that you took reasonable steps to manage the risk. One of those steps would be to warn anyone who rang you to use your airstrip that Roos were a present danger and risk. And I would suggest that as long as your strip is just a paddock meeting the ALA dimensions as part of your rural stock property , there could not be a reasonable expectation to put a 3 metre perimeter fence up, otherwise you would be required to do the same on all you perimeter and driveway fences in case a roo jumped off your property onto the road or onto your driveway and a visitor got clobbered.

 

So somewhere in this there has to be a 'reasonable man' perspective.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

What I saw this morning:

 

"Kangaroos on airShip problem" Thought it was a new thread.

 

Too much wine last night obviously.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Look Tubz is a good old bloke really the emphasis being old ... LOL. I know his intentions are to make us aware of the liabilities and risks because some on this forum just don't see potential liabilities at all.The way I see it is about managing the risks. It is physically impossible to eliminate all the risks of life and breath and walk at the same time. So manage the risks to the level that is possible to the point if things do go wrong and you are held accountable that you can successfully argue to the courts that you took reasonable steps to manage the risk. One of those steps would be to warn anyone who rang you to use your airstrip that Roos were a present danger and risk. And I would suggest that as long as your strip is just a paddock meeting the ALA dimensions as part of your rural stock property , there could not be a reasonable expectation to put a 3 metre perimeter fence up, otherwise you would be required to do the same on all you perimeter and driveway fences in case a roo jumped off your property onto the road or onto your driveway and a visitor got clobbered.

 

So somewhere in this there has to be a 'reasonable man' perspective.

Why water down the good solid advice I'm giving based on a lot of personal experience when the potential for someone saying something like "Yeh, it's all bullshit" is so huge.

 

Sure a paddock is a paddock but we are talking about airstrips here and that might come down to whether there was a windsock, or a strip on the paddock was mown.

 

I previously pointed out that you have a duty of care also to the people who DON't phone you up, whether or not that's breaking a rule, and I also went to the trouble of tracking down the Shire of Berrigan case relating to a snag in the Murray River so people would have a better understanding.

 

The key issue in Donoghue v Stevenson is not a reasonable man perspective, because they all say the same thing once they're caught; negligence centres around a reasonably forseeable risk, and people have pointed that risk out over and over again, and very clearly in this thread, so it has to be dealt with.

 

And several good solutions have been posted in this forum.

 

For example how bloody hard is it to close the strip with two white crosses if you're not using it! How do you think you would fare if you left a get open and your cattle got out onto a highway at night?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Why water down the good solid advice I'm giving based on a lot of personal experience when the potential for someone saying something like "Yeh, it's all ********" is so huge.Sure a paddock is a paddock but we are talking about airstrips here and that might come down to whether there was a windsock, or a strip on the paddock was mown.

I'm agreeing with you ya old buzzard ... Who is watering anything down.

All those things you mention white crosses etc are managing the risk. You also raise an interesting perspective about the reasonable man perspective in the Stevenson v Donohue case that I hadn't quite considered. However as you appear to agree managing the risk is the key and white crosses are a good example on a private airstrip. They then land entirely at their own risk.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Agreed. But it's one white cross at each end, NOT two white crosses near the windsock.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm agreeing with you ya old buzzard ... Who is watering anything down.All those things you mention white crosses etc are managing the risk. You also raise an interesting perspective about the reasonable man perspective in the Stevenson v Donohue case that I hadn't quite considered. However as you appear to agree managing the risk is the key and white crosses are a good example on a private airstrip. They then land entirely at their own risk.

I was just about in tears at the thought you might be agreeing with me and th

 

 

[Oscar]

I believe Turbs is completely correct re the situation for livestock getting out of your property -a foreseeable risk. 'Natural' hazards MIGHT be regarded in a slightly different light, and if one could 'prove' that kangaroo infestation was not a normal occurrence but a result of, for instance, unusual circumstances (drought, a reduction of grazing habitat as a result of major fires in the area or somesuch), then you MIGHT stand a chance of mounting a defence - but I'd agree with Turbs, that lawyers are going to get seriously involved and that WILL cost heaps.

 

Here's a question for those with more expertise: if you own a private strip, and it is listed on any publicly-available information service (e.g. the AOPA National Airfield Directory etc.) - are you in effect 'offering a service' that might be construed as having some sort of increased 'duty of care'? What is the position of private property croppie strips etc.?

 

For instance - there is, almost directly opposite my own home, an entirely unmarked strip that is regularly used by the RFS as a service point for local-area firefighting (and having a fully-loaded Thrush Commander water-bomber heading out about 100 feet over the house 20+ times an afternoon gets a bit wearing, especially if a couple of choppers are also using the strip and dam).. Just because the property owner 'provides a service' to the RFS, does that make him liable for a 'duty of care'?

 

 

[rankamateur]

But in seriousness, an auto-scarer needn't be a drone per se; a ground-based small cart with gps tracking around the perimeter of the strip and solar power than would work in flyable sun conditions with suitable noise-making apparatus ( I'd think a rap track would drive even roos to vacate the area) shouldn't be all that expensive to set up - only needs a steering servo, no gyros etc. and unaffected by (flyable) wind conditions.

Or you could mount a couple of speakers and a small MP3 player pumping out Barry Manilow, that would scare most things off.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Or you could mount a couple of speakers and a small MP3 player pumping out Barry Manilow, that would scare most things off.

"break the chairs in two"?

 

 

[Camel]

Extract from ERSA, there are plenty with warnings.

 

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

 

1. Animal hazard exists.
    
    
    
    
   
2. Caution: High ground to W.
    
    
    
    
   
3. Severe TURB in W wind conditions.
    
   Another
    
   ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
    
    
    
    
    
   
4. Kangaroo hazard exists
    
    
    
    
   
5. PJE OPS WI 5NM HJ. CTC AD operator for additional INFO.
    
    
    
   

 

 

 

Another

 

ADDITIONAL INFORMATIONConcentrations of birds and wallabies in vicinity of AD.

 

If there are dangers and stated I can't see how you can place any blame, as for ALA you need permission first and pilot has to determine if safe, at private strips definite permission and heard of quite a few that you must sign a disclaimer and you may find if at a private strip you may have trouble with insurance in the case of a mishap especially if it does not meet ALA standards.

 

If you crash your car on the road or run off the road do you think someone else is going to pay for your damage ?

 

Many rental car operators have a clause that the car is not permitted on dirt roads, that equals no insurance on dirt roads.

 

I use to use a kangaroo infested strip and the afternoon landing method was called the kangaroo run, fly downwind at two feet off the strip scaring roos, then climb to the right, turn left base, final and land, in other words low pass turn around and land, not good with other traffic but worked well.

 

 

[Oscar]

Or you could mount a couple of speakers and a small MP3 player pumping out Barry Manilow, that would scare most things off.

Well, certainly anesthetise them...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Agreed. But it's one white cross at each end, NOT two white crosses near the windsock.

If the cross is not on the runway it means "clear to jump"

 

 

[Oscar]

If the cross is not on the runway it means "clear to jump"

Um - do the 'roos know that? (and surely, it should be 'clear to HOP'?)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Here's a question for those with more expertise: if you own a private strip, and it is listed on any publicly-available information service (e.g. the AOPA National Airfield Directory etc.) - are you in effect 'offering a service' that might be construed as having some sort of increased 'duty of care'? What is the position of private property croppie strips etc.?For instance - there is, almost directly opposite my own home, an entirely unmarked strip that is regularly used by the RFS as a service point for local-area firefighting (and having a fully-loaded Thrush Commander water-bomber heading out about 100 feet over the house 20+ times an afternoon gets a bit wearing, especially if a couple of choppers are also using the strip and dam).. Just because the property owner 'provides a service' to the RFS, does that make him liable for a 'duty of care'?

That's a bit too close to asking for legal advice; I've suggested a few legal companies previously.

 

However for the the principal of "offering a service" read Donoghue v Stevenson - it was made clear that there did not have to be a contract for a duty of care to be owed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Extract from ERSA, there are plenty with warnings.ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

 

1. Animal hazard exists.
    
    
    
    
   
2. Caution: High ground to W.
    
    
    
    
   
3. Severe TURB in W wind conditions.
    
   Another
    
   ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
    
    
    
    
   
4. Kangaroo hazard exists
    
    
    
    
   
5. PJE OPS WI 5NM HJ. CTC AD operator for additional INFO.
    
    
   

 

 

 

Another

 

ADDITIONAL INFORMATIONConcentrations of birds and wallabies in vicinity of AD.

 

If there are dangers and stated I can't see how you can place any blame

 

We previously discussed the case where a claim failed because (a) there was a risk warning plaque on the instrument panel and (b) the pilot was not negligent. No passenger could avoid seeing that warning, and when you buy a power tool these days the common theme is to wrap a risk warning around the trigger so no one can use the tool without having seen the warning.

 

The above notes may act as a warning to those who look up ERSA, but it's the airstrip owner who owes the duty of care, so somehow he has to work out a way that people who don't look up the ERSA are warned and protected, (like the plaque and the trigger sticker), as for ALA you need permission first and pilot has to determine if safe, at private strips definite permission and heard of quite a few that you must sign a disclaimer and you may find if at a private strip you may have trouble with insurance in the case of a mishap especially if it does not meet ALA standards.

 

If you crash your car on the road or run off the road do you think someone else is going to pay for your damage ?

Yes, they are if they have been negligent;the Shire of Wentworth had to, even after spending $750,000.00 in legal costs trying to get out of it. I've posted the case link, I thing in the file "Public Liability"

 

[Teckair]

Yesterday was the first with the new whistles fitted the student could hear them during landing and he stated in his experience they do work on cars. No kangaroos collected but could not tell how much help the whistles were.