Gathering of Eagles Watts Bridge

[rankamateur]

A mate of mine was there and he said that there was no x wind. Calm conditions

There on the day? Or there at the site of the ground loop?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Oops!

 

That complicates things Dazza.

 

 

[M61A1]

A mate of mine was there and he said that there was no x wind. Calm conditions

Yep, was quite calm, this is evident on the video, nowhere can you see grass or clothing moving with a breeze, or the dust behind the wheels for that matter. The left wheel though doesn't seem to be throwing up as much debris as the right, just what that might indicate, I don't know.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I think you will find the dust coming off the right wheel is the pilots attempt to stop the left yaw by using the brakes. The rudder is limp at this stage and is only applied late in the ground loop.

 

There is substantial momentum occurring (quite a heavy machine) and you can see it increasing as the swing increases by the increased side load on the right wheel. This side load ultimately peeled the tyre off the rim. He attempted to turn off the runway waaaay too fast and that started a significant swing that he failed to arrest. I doubt he could have arrested the swing at that speed with the engine idling, he induced it by the turn at too high a speed.

 

He should never have attempted a turn at any speed above taxi speed, he has engine idling with virtually no wash over the rudder so he should have kept it absolutely straight until he reached taxi speed and then applied power and turned the aircraft at taxi speed under power.

 

If you haven't had the privilege of tail wheel flying you dont fully appreciate the weather-cocking effect of a CoG aft of the main wheels and once they start to go you need increasingly aggressive inputs to correct.

 

I dont want my comments to be seen as criticising, just as observations. We can all make mistakes.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I haven't experienced it sweetheart, sounds exciting.

 

Bill Boeing was smart, he dumped the old taildraggers and look where his company is today.

 

How would it be with 747 taildraggers - "good evening folks, we are just taxying for the teeeeeEErminal"

 

 

[derekliston]

There actually was, from time to time, a bit of crosswind on the day, not a lot and not all the time but at one stage (not when the Stearman landed) it was quite strong. In my very limited (Decathlon) experience it doesn't need much which is why I gave up flying taildraggers, I couldn't afford to fly often enough to be confident!

 

 

[dazza 38]

There on the day? Or there at the site of the ground loop?

There and witnessed the event and he owns and flies a RV7 , which also has a non steerable tail wheel, it simply free castors and he loves it that way . He knows what he is talking about.

 

 

[Teckair]

Yeah like 747s have got anything to do with this.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yeah like 747s have got anything to do with this.

Its just me ol mate Turbzy in a bent mood of humour Richard.

Funny thing was that following his suggestion I had this evil picture in my mind of a 747 doing a ground loop and all the hosties and contents of carts and toilets flying down the interior to be all plastered against the rear of the cabin ... stupid i know, comes from associating with too many maniacs ... LOL.

 

 

[Teckair]

A mate of mine was there and he said that there was no x wind. Calm conditions

It looked like there was with the plane up on one main wheel, hard to believe the pilot tried to turn off the strip at that speed that would almost guarantee a ground loop.

 

 

[dazza 38]

It looked like there was with the plane up on one main wheel, hard to believe the pilot tried to turn off the strip at that speed that would almost guarantee a ground loop.

Apparently he touched down crooked ( as in not in line with the runway) which started the chain of events .

 

 

[turboplanner]

Funny thing was that following his suggestion I had this evil picture in my mind of a 747 doing a ground loop and all the hosties and contents of carts and toilets flying down the interior to be all plastered against the rear of the cabin ... stupid i know, comes from associating with too many maniacs ... LOL.

We've got about a week of freedom before Fachunter gets sick of laying on his old Indian and puts us straight on taildraggers, but I think a few DC2s gave the passengers a few frights.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I haven't experienced it sweetheart, sounds exciting.Bill Boeing was smart, he dumped the old taildraggers and look where his company is today.

 

How would it be with 747 taildraggers - "good evening folks, we are just taxying for the teeeeeEErminal"

Turbs , It's not like Mr Boeing 'dumped ' the taildragger, they simply had done their job of training all the WW 2 recruit pilots and wern't needed any more. Boing did indeed continue to build B-17s for a time after the war. The good old Stearman of course went on to become a very well used Ag plane especially when fitted with the P&W 985 of 450 HP, and of course many are still in restored condition as show planes and aerobatic aircraft throughout the world.

 

I'm sure the training 'ground loop ' was probabily very common back then, in fact many of their training fields in the Central Valley of California and in Texas were what the yanks called 'Mats'...that is a square mat of grass or asphalt approximately 1 mile square. Many of these still exist in California and I have flown over several which are still shown on maps..I deviated once on a nav to a spot north of Chico to one called Vina Mat......it was just a very large square of old asphalt in the middle of a dried up swamp....I'm sure Mr Boeing was paid very handsomely for the many thousands of these much- needed abinitio trainers that he produced.............Maj......

 

.....

 

 

 

[M61A1]

I think you will find the dust coming off the right wheel is the pilots attempt to stop the left yaw by using the brakes. The rudder is limp at this stage and is only applied late in the ground loop.There is substantial momentum occurring (quite a heavy machine) and you can see it increasing as the swing increases by the increased side load on the right wheel. This side load ultimately peeled the tyre off the rim. He attempted to turn off the runway waaaay too fast and that started a significant swing that he failed to arrest. I doubt he could have arrested the swing at that speed with the engine idling, he induced it by the turn at too high a speed.

 

He should never have attempted a turn at any speed above taxi speed, he has engine idling with virtually no wash over the rudder so he should have kept it absolutely straight until he reached taxi speed and then applied power and turned the aircraft at taxi speed under power.

 

If you haven't had the privilege of tail wheel flying you dont fully appreciate the weather-cocking effect of a CoG aft of the main wheels and once they start to go you need increasingly aggressive inputs to correct.

 

I dont want my comments to be seen as criticising, just as observations. We can all make mistakes.

While my hours are still quite low, I have only ever flown taildraggers, I do understand where the centre of mass is and what the effects are.

My observations are different, there was only a brief period when the rudder was neutral, and for the rest of the time excepting the final bootfull, there was, I would estimate ( by looking at the triangle of sunlight under the top of the rudder) more than 5 degrees of right rudder. If he was deliberately turning, I have no idea where he thought he was going, because there was no exit from the runway to the taxiway where he turned. Also in the one that landed nicely had dust trails off both wheels until he slowed, which made me wonder whether the left wheel of the accident aircraft was not turning as fast(retarded), or was just unloaded.

 

 

[aj_richo]

Perhaps the pilot in question needs to review some of the WWII Stearman training films?

 

 

 

[Teckair]

Perhaps the pilot in question needs to review some of the WWII Stearman training films?

 

Yes you maybe right in the film they three pointed the Steerman, which in my opinion is the best way.

 

 

[Tex]

Isn't it the best in all taildraggers? (In light winds)

 

 

[David Isaac]

It is arguably the safest technique because once sitting on all three wheels she has no flying speed. A wheeler is more tricky because you put down on the mains at flying speed and you then have to maintain directional control with the tail flying and you have to decelerate which allows the tail to settle. Braking with the tail high and at the higher speed has its risks.

 

 

[Teckair]

Isn't it the best in all taildraggers? (In light winds)

Yes, I usually do it what ever the wind is, except with training where it is a requirement to teach both wheelers and 3 pointers..

 

 

[Tomo]

Easily done, I'm glad it didn't turn out worse.

 

It's easy to favour one side of the plane when flying from the rear I reckon, in this case it was the right side. Interesting to see the adverse effect of a boot full of right rudder to keep straight, which lifted the left side up on roll out.

 

If you're going to bung a landing, it will be in-front of a bunch of people, it's a fact!!

 

 

[facthunter]

No one is ever around to see my perfect landings. Nev

 

 

[rankamateur]

No one is ever around to see my perfect landings. Nev

Or my perfect golf shots! last time I did one was at a charity golf day and my two playing partners went into the clubhouse for a wee break. I teed off while I waited, beautiful straight up the fairway, and not a sole saw it, and it only happened once.

 

 

[red750]

and not a sole saw it

...nor heel, nor toe.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Another one of you taildraggers just groundlooped at Longreach.

 

 

[rankamateur]

...nor heel, nor toe.

OK Ok and you two Dazza, I don't do it as often as sum hear.