Too much Safety can kill you

[AVOCET]

Plural Z Alpha ,

 

VOGONS have arrived !!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...the first response to even a small incident, is to create another layer of process and regulation. It's even got to the point where accidentally omitting a process ( whether actually necessary or not), will result in another step in the process, making it more difficult to follow the process that you had trouble following alread due it's unnecessary complexity...

Sadly, M61A1, you have tapped into the reality of a society where nobody is trusted to do the right thing, so everyone has to jump thru the same crazy hoops. The clever ones learn how to misuse the system and get away with it; the rest of us get ripped off, but blunder on in the hope that, one day, we too might get real justice.

Sorry, I just finished catching up on a few episodes of Breaking Bad...

 

(Crikey, is this apologising a Quirindi thing?)

 

 

[eightyknots]

Sure have mate. Lived for 5 years in Boston and have spent extended times in Canada and the UK with work commitments. Never actually been to Bali. I would move to China and build engines, but between the rotax 912 and the bex 1000 the market is a little over saturated for me.

Bring on the BEX-1000:wish:

 

[

 

 

This has been in my mind a long time before I arrived here by the way, goes all the way back to ADR27 (Oz design rules for cars) about 1973. I could not figure for the life of me why our pissy little country (on the automotive scale) would have it's own unique, and difficult, set of anti-pollution laws for cars. This immediately isolated us, GM, Ford and Chrysler Australia couldn't draw on their Parent companies technology such as Californian spec engines that were tougher and every car that was imported had to make special Australian models severely raising the retail price - hence why we got so many base model cars here in the 70's not to mention our awful ADR27 spec engines. Of course Holden gave up and ended up buying engines from Nissan for the VL Commodore and closing the foundry and engine factory at the time costing jobs. Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot, geez.

The good thing about ADR27 (actually I think it was known as ADR27A) was that pollution levels in high urban density started to decline.

 

The bad thing was that, to get engines to pollute less, they used more fuel: go figure. Our local manufacturer used pretty crude methods to achieve better pollution levels (e.g. the dashpot). Another bad thing was that the multitude of extra hoses fitted to ADR27A compliant engines meant that there were a lot of extra things to go wrong.

 

The automotive ADRs had some features which really annoyed overseas manufacturers. For example, in Australia, cars had to have dash light dimmers. In most other jurisdictions that wasn't necessary. The result was that they had to introduce limited-run Australian specified cars which really irked these car makers.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There was an ADR 26 which came into effect on 1/1/72.

 

ADR27 came into effect on 1/1/74, and only had specifications for hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide.

 

That was followed by ADR27A,B,C and then 30 as the experts began to come to grips with what caused serious health issues like cancer and what didn't, and over time the key factors became PM and NoX. The first measurements were gramme per vehicle kiloetre, but these days we measure grammes per kilowatt hour.

 

I'm told that in the US, acid rain is declining, and of course cars and trucks running through urban areas now actually intake polluted air, clean it up and exhaust air with only about 25% of PM and NoX accepted by USEPA (and Aust) for factory/business emissions.

 

So no longer can the green sector of the community complain about "dirty cars and trucks" running through their neighbourhood and receive any credibility.

 

Once the automotive industry determinedly took the path to clean engines, the billions of dollars no longer spent on developing the vehicle as a whole (Cummins Diesel alone were spending half a billion dollars per year on research) were used not only to clean up the engines but to claw back fuel economy since we passed Peak Oil around 2000, and today burn less fuel for more power than they did in 1972.

 

The downside of this warm and fuzzy story is how much extra you are paying for a vehicle now - thousands more for a car, tens of thousands more for a truck.

 

What would be good to see now are the statistics which show the number of lives saved by this trillion dollar exercise.

 

The ADRs weren't such a problem for Australia in the finish because there was a demand for carlines to be widened anyway to include multiple engines, multiple transmissions, multiple drivelines, multiple bodies etc. An SUV for example usually has about 40 model variants.

 

Robotics and computers allowed production lines to change away from batch production to custom production - humans made mistakes when models changed but computers could get 10/10, so it was normal to have a military vehicles for the Japanese Army followed by a four cylinder truck etc.

 

This allowed orders to be delivered faster, and to avoid massive component stockpiles, Japan invented the "Just In Time" method where the component suppliers' trucks would be lined up outside the factory and moving forward as the factory consumed parts.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I'm told that in the US, acid rain is declining, and of course cars and trucks running through urban areas now actually intake polluted air, clean it up and exhaust air with only about 25% of PM and NoX accepted by USEPA (and Aust) for factory/business emissions.

What a crock that is, emissions output is like jumping on a set of bathroom scales, the scales are zeroed first. the emissions test equipment have already taken into account the surrounding contaminants.

 

Once the automotive industry determinedly took the path to clean engines, the billions of dollars no longer spent on developing the vehicle as a whole (Cummins Diesel alone were spending half a billion dollars per year on research) were used not only to clean up the engines but to claw back fuel economy since we passed Peak Oil around 2000, and today burn less fuel for more power than they did in 1972.

You have written this like the Automotive industry are Saints, they are not and have been forced fighting every step of the way.

 

Every diesel engine company has been spending up huge trying to meet Euro 5 and 6.

 

It's actually worked out well for Cummins who have spent big and will supply some to Scania in Scania's own backyard as they have been unable to achieve Euro 6 so far like many others.

 

http://cumminseuro6.com/what-is-euro-6

 

 

[turboplanner]

What a crock that is, emissions output is like jumping on a set of bathroom scales, the scales are zeroed first. the emissions test equipment have already taken into account the surrounding contaminants.

It would help if you had read as far as this: "and exhaust air with only about 25% of PM and NoX accepted by USEPA (and Aust) for factory/business emissions."

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hope the fears about an ex-defence safety manager prove to be groundless, but in my experience many ex-defence people find it hard to adjust to a situation where there is not the unlimited time, money or personnel they are used to.

 

On the subject of crazy emission rules, I once had a Toyota Corona with a Holden 4 cyl engine, and it used an air-pump to blow fresh air into the exhaust system. This fresh air diluted the emission concentrations and made things legal without actually reducing the total emissions at all.

 

I always thought this reflected badly on the education of the public servants involved.

 

 

[DrZoos]

We need a senate party that just stands for efficiency and cutting red tape. They need to insist every workplace has a 1:2 ratio of OH&S buffoons to efficiency officers......business would fund it by the millions

 

oH&S has and will continue to kill the future of this country till the safety morons are controlled.

 

Yes accidents are terrible and must be prevented. But the morons who rip up good footpaths or playgrounds because they are x years old, or ban children from cart wheels ought t be hung put to dry for the morons they are... Thats not safety , its utter BS and we ought to highlight these idiots for the blight they are on pur living standard...

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Bring on the BEX-1000:wish:

BEX-1600

 

Don't wont misunderstandings getting ingrained now .....

 

 

[turboplanner]

So when are we actually going to see something?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

So when are we actually going to see something?

Give me a deposit then you can get in your car, drive 10 minutes up Center Rd and you can see "something".

 

Otherwise you'll just have to wait like everyone else

 

 

[turboplanner]

So, twice as good as a Jab at half the price and still just a dream.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Bring on the BEX-1000:wish:

 

BEX-1600Don't wont misunderstandings getting ingrained now .....

 

So, twice as good as a Jab at half the price and still just a dream.

It's been upgraded from 1000 to 1600. We are getting there.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

So, twice as good as a Jab at half the price and still just a dream.

So you're not going to put a deposit down?

 

Actually TP I just took you off ignore today because I couldn't remember why I actually had you on ignore for so long - still can't TBO, but you've done enough today to go back on - so till next time!

 

 

[turboplanner]

I bet he takes a peek.

 

 

[dlegg]

HR and OH&S people feel it's there duty to dumb everything down to the lowest common denomination of fools to protect them from themselves. We are surrounded with examples. Drive anywhere for 10 minutes and count the signs you past. Look at kids parks with the swings and slides removed.

 

Then spend a week at oshkosh and marvel at the access available to all aircraft, no fences or serious security anywhere, and wow, no-one getting hurt or needing protecting from themselves. There parks have swings and slides, only basic signs on roads........

 

 

[M61A1]

HR and OH&S people feel it's there duty to dumb everything down to the lowest common denomination of fools to protect them from themselves. We are surrounded with examples. Drive anywhere for 10 minutes and count the signs you past. Look at kids parks with the swings and slides removed.Then spend a week at oshkosh and marvel at the access available to all aircraft, no fences or serious security anywhere, and wow, no-one getting hurt or needing protecting from themselves. There parks have swings and slides, only basic signs on roads........

The signs are actually there as arsecovering, nothing to do with protecting the incompetent. Because ridiculous chain of responsibility laws, every manager makes sure that his employee's primary responsibility is to ensure that it will be difficult to sue them. This is made more difficult by thieving ambulance chaser law firms, who are continually trying to lower the bar for precedents, and the number of money hungry individuals who honestly believe that these firms are there to help them, and this money is "free", it comes at no cost to anyone, because it's provided by insurers.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

and this money is "free", it comes at no cost to anyone, because it's provided by insurers.

I seen what you dun there.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

For the last decade the Australian mining industry has seriously addressed safety performance and as a result the rate of injuries and fatalities has greatly reduced. But guess what? Productivity has halved. People spend much of their time in safety management toolbox meetings, step backs and so on. A lot of efficient (but risky) ways of doing things have been eliminated. It is a trade off. The point at which you trade off is set by society's expectations. The mining industry is seriously uncompetitive now, but community expectations may prevent a return to productivity by reverting to the practices of the 20th century. Flying is subject to the same community expectations, which in the end will dictate what we can and can't do.

 

 

[M61A1]

For the last decade the Australian mining industry has seriously addressed safety performance and as a result the rate of injuries and fatalities has greatly reduced. But guess what? Productivity has halved. People spend much of their time in safety management toolbox meetings, step backs and so on. A lot of efficient (but risky) ways of doing things have been eliminated. It is a trade off. The point at which you trade off is set by society's expectations. The mining industry is seriously uncompetitive now, but community expectations may prevent a return to productivity by reverting to the practices of the 20th century. Flying is subject to the same community expectations, which in the end will dictate what we can and can't do.

And a lot of the efficient, but safe practices were abandoned, because stupid people managed to somehow find the only way you can hurt yourself doing it, then made it someone else's fault.

 

 

[eightyknots]

HR and OH&S people feel it's there duty to dumb everything down to the lowest common denomination of fools to protect them from themselves. We are surrounded with examples. Drive anywhere for 10 minutes and count the signs you past. Look at kids parks with the swings and slides removed.Then spend a week at oshkosh and marvel at the access available to all aircraft, no fences or serious security anywhere, and wow, no-one getting hurt or needing protecting from themselves. There parks have swings and slides, only basic signs on roads........

I bought a new electric jug 18 months ago and it came with four pages of safety instructions. Some of the safety instructions went way beyond people's lowest levels of common sense. This included statements such as: "do not operate this device: ... in the rain ...in a bath ...by children ...whilst intoxicated ...etc. For the illiterate, it came embellished with cartoon pictures.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Eighty, check the death statistics; you would be amazed at the number of people electrocuted by using their hair drier in the bath.

 

Author Bill Bryson in "Notes from a Big Country" in the Chapter entitled "I was just trying to lie down":

 

"According to the latest Statistical Abstract of the United States, every year more than 400,000 Americans suffer injuries involving beds, mattresses and pillows. Think about that for a minute. That is more people than live in Greater Coventry. That is almost 2,000 bed, mattress or pillow injuries a day. In the time it takes you to read this article, four Americans will somehow manage to be wounded by their bedding."

 

Manufacturers are reacting to the world today.

 

 

[M61A1]

Eighty, check the death statistics; you would be amazed at the number of people electrocuted by using their hair drier in the bath.Author Bill Bryson in "Notes from a Big Country" in the Chapter entitled "I was just trying to lie down":

 

"According to the latest Statistical Abstract of the United States, every year more than 400,000 Americans suffer injuries involving beds, mattresses and pillows. Think about that for a minute. That is more people than live in Greater Coventry. That is almost 2,000 bed, mattress or pillow injuries a day. In the time it takes you to read this article, four Americans will somehow manage to be wounded by their bedding."

 

Manufacturers are reacting to the world today.

And the problem is???

Let them go, we don't need these people breeding and making more of them. Society needs to let go of the idea of protecting people from themselves and celebrate natural selection, and the sooner the better.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If only we could M6..........1, however these are the people with the money who are smart enough to know they we were negligent when they get hurt, and take our homes away.

 

 

[M61A1]

If only we could M6..........1, however these are the people with the money who are smart enough to know they we were negligent when they get hurt, and take our homes away.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, the only real negligence in these cases is that of the so called "victim", they have no right to blame anyone but themselves. If you are SO stupid, that you couldn't foresee electrocution from using an electrical appliance in water, you should be living a an institution. Negligence is slinging a load from a crane over people using substandard lift gear, not failing to tell someone boiling water is hot. I have no problem with genuinely negligent people being made accountable, I do have a problem with people who should have known better blaming someone else for their own stupidity. It's where they drawn that line of what is negligence that I have issues with. That line has constantly been moving towards ridiculous with every ambulance chasing lawyer looking for a new precedent to fill his pockets, and magistrates dumb enough to award payouts to people that should have been marched out of the court room and had costs ordered against them.