Mudgee

[dutchroll]

On downwind with the wingtip on the piano keys, close the throttle and turn will attain the runway.

Yes that would work. The wingspan is quite short, so with the runway under the wingtip you're quite close. But that's not a normal GA circuit and fitting in with other circuit traffic often makes this impossible at the places I commonly fly.

 

.....but even in a Pitts if you don't have a plan for when the engine stops you are living dangerously.

Agreed. This is why when I'm cruising from A to B in it I continually assess the immediate area for forced-landing suitability. In the RAAF we were trained to execute forced landings until our eyes bled. High key (if you have 2500'). Low key (if you have 1500'). Look for an open space in front of you with anything much less than that. Wait til the aimpoint is well until the nose before taking flap.. Etc, etc. In advanced training in the Macchi that continued on to conducting an instrument approach with a flameout. Yes, a glide instrument approach down to landing!

In my Wings Test (looooong time ago) I remember on the first takeoff getting a low altitude engine failure which led to simulated ejection, followed by a circuit, touch and go, another engine failure upwind but ejection seat doesn't work, line up for forced landing somewhere, go round, join circuit, engine failure downwind, glide approach, touch and go, engine failure upwind, no ejection but can make the cross runway, quick glide approach, touch and go, another engine failure on climbout, setup for another glide approach, OK that's all good, now let's go out to the training area for some aerobatics. This goes some way to explaining the soaking wet state of my flying gear upon return (I passed too).

 

This type of training hangs with you for a very long time. It's all well and good to "practice", but if you're not trained in proper techniques in the first place, that's a problem.

 

 

[winsor68]

I agree; but it won't help if the engine dies at 50 feet and you have to get across a six-lane road and a ten foot high cyclone wire fence, to reach the school playing field on the other side. That's what caught the RV 3 pilot.

Not even 30000+ hours in your log book and several previous successful forced landings from engine failures will save you in this situation.

 

 

[M61A1]

Yes that would work. The wingspan is quite short, so with the runway under the wingtip you're quite close. But that's not a normal GA circuit and fitting in with other circuit traffic often makes this impossible at the places I commonly fly.

Agreed. This is why when I'm cruising from A to B in it I continually assess the immediate area for forced-landing suitability. In the RAAF we were trained to execute forced landings until our eyes bled. High key (if you have 2500'). Low key (if you have 1500'). Look for an open space in front of you with anything much less than that. Wait til the aimpoint is well until the nose before taking flap.. Etc, etc. In advanced training in the Macchi that continued on to conducting an instrument approach with a flameout. Yes, a glide instrument approach down to landing!

 

In my Wings Test (looooong time ago) I remember on the first takeoff getting a low altitude engine failure which led to simulated ejection, followed by a circuit, touch and go, another engine failure upwind but ejection seat doesn't work, line up for forced landing somewhere, go round, join circuit, engine failure downwind, glide approach, touch and go, engine failure upwind, no ejection but can make the cross runway, quick glide approach, touch and go, another engine failure on climbout, setup for another glide approach, OK that's all good, now let's go out to the training area for some aerobatics. This goes some way to explaining the soaking wet state of my flying gear upon return (I passed too).

 

This type of training hangs with you for a very long time. It's all well and good to "practice", but if you're not trained in proper techniques in the first place, that's a problem.

I have seen a Macchi land dead stick at Amberley in the eighties. The crash alarm went off, and we were told that it was a Macchi with engine failure, so expected him back real quick. Half hour later a Macchi appears lined up on 15, looked normal but high, then he proceeded to lower the nose to what appeared to be about 45 deg and straight at the keys, then flared with a a short hold off then a very short rollout. I am told that the intake seal had come adrift and was disturbing the airflow enough to flame out, but that he had successfully relit a few times.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... In my Wings Test (looooong time ago) I remember on the first takeoff getting a low altitude engine failure which led to simulated ejection, followed by a circuit, touch and go, another engine failure upwind but ejection seat doesn't work, line up for forced landing somewhere, go round, join circuit, engine failure downwind, glide approach, touch and go, engine failure upwind, no ejection but can make the cross runway, quick glide approach, touch and go, another engine failure on climbout, setup for another glide approach, OK that's all good, now let's go out to the training area for some aerobatics. This goes some way to explaining the soaking wet state of my flying gear upon return (I passed too).This type of training hangs with you for a very long time. It's all well and good to "practice", but if you're not trained in proper techniques in the first place, that's a problem.

This deserves a thread of its own, Dutch. Maybe we RA pilots should be subjected to something closer to that sort of workout. One of my early instructors pulled close to twenty simulated engine failures on me in less than an hour. As a result I habitually look for good paddocks.

I always regret not going back to the same instructor to do my nav training. He was big on doing your nav out west where there are no landmarks to cheat with.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's the same as people who do their entire training in calm weather, boast about how they did it in minimum hours, then screw up a crosswind landing.

 

You will eventually slide into nondescript country - it usually happens in minutes - the lake and the hill are to the south of the town, but you've been drifting and this is a different town. Things don't look right, you go a bit further and a landmark comes up that shouldn't be there. This usually happens in bad weather. Better to get your CFI to set a difficult Navex.

 

 

[dazza 38]

That's the same as people who do their entire training in calm weather, boast about how they did it in minimum hours, then screw up a crosswind landing.You will eventually slide into nondescript country - it usually happens in minutes - the lake and the hill are to the south of the town, but you've been drifting and this is a different town. Things don't look right, you go a bit further and a landmark comes up that shouldn't be there. This usually happens in bad weather. Better to get your CFI to set a difficult Navex.

Boonah is a great place to fly, only one runway 04/22 and he airfield is surrounded by mountains. Pilots get plenty of practise performing crosswind landings.

 

 

[Teckair]

He was big on doing your nav out west where there are no landmarks to cheat with.

Really? VFR navigation without land marks?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Really? VFR navigation without land marks?

I'm talking about flat terrain with few if any roads, railways and towns. A place where following a compass heading and calculating groundspeed is critical.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why not pick a WAC Navex and show it to Teckair or just name the route destinations.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Griffith to Swan Hill

 

 

[turboplanner]

Somewhere near Quirindi Dafydd

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Somewhere near Quirindi Dafydd

Nope - over the bluebush. Around Quirindi there are heaps of landmarks - the Liverpool range, and the Breeza plains, and the ridge running north through Werris Creek. If it's down to minimum VFR visibility, almost anywhere will do.

 

 

[M61A1]

Quirindi to Birdsville then....I would like to take the Drifter to the Birdsville races just for the fun of it one day, but I'm wanting to build a bit more experience with navigating in relatively featureless terrain. Kind of hard to get lost on the east coast, so many landmarks.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The added complication is compass error. I've spent heaps getting mine adjusted, but it's often out by 10-20 degrees. The deviation chart I made up needs quite a bit more work.

 

I've become too dependent on iPhone's compass and GPS.

 

 

[M61A1]

The added complication is compass error. I've spent heaps getting mine adjusted, but it's often out by 10-20 degrees. The deviation chart I made up needs quite a bit more work.I've become too dependent on iPhone's compass and GPS.

Have you found what is causing the errors? Could it be your iPhone? I have noticed in the Drifter that if I have my iPad on my knee, the compass has a significant error, so I have to rely on one OR the other, I can't really use both and cross reference.

 

 

[Teckair]

Why not pick a WAC Navex and show it to Teckair or just name the route destinations.

What would be the point in having a WAC if you are not using land marks?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Have you found what is causing the errors? Could it be your iPhone? I have noticed in the Drifter that if I have my iPad on my knee, the compass has a significant error, so I have to rely on one OR the other, I can't really use both and cross reference.

Just experimented with a good orienteering compass. The iPhone has no effect until within 50mm. The iPad a little further away. In my aircraft they are mounted at least 600mm away from the compass. Maybe I have a northern hemisphere compass, but the instrument shop which repaired it might have said so.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What would be the point in having a WAC if you are not using land marks?

I haven't found any blank WAC charts yet; let's not get too precious about the definition of land mark.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I'm talking about flat terrain with few if any roads, railways and towns. A place where following a compass heading and calculating groundspeed is critical.

And hoping like hell for a day when the predicted wind is something like right, on one of my navs it was out by about 170 degrees, landmarks told me the prediction was way off!

 

 

[M61A1]

Just experimented with a good orienteering compass. The iPhone has no effect until within 50mm. The iPad a little further away. In my aircraft they are mounted at least 600mm away from the compass. Maybe I have a northern hemisphere compass, but the instrument shop which repaired it might have said so.

Was it fitted to your aircraft when they repaired it? If not, take your aircraft and your orienteering compass, and away from any building etc, line the aircraft up with magnetic north using the handheld compass, then adjust your aircraft compass to match (there are usually 2 screws under a little plate on the front- I cant remember which one is which, but it's east to tell when you adjust it), repeat this for south, west, east, also n/e, s/e. s/w and n/w, getting it as close as possible for each, then any deviation remaining is recorded on your deviation card. Best done with all normal avionics switched on and engine running.

 

 

[M61A1]

What would be the point in having a WAC if you are not using land marks?

I think the point is that further out, the land marks are sparse, making accurate dead reckoning essential to find your next landmark, instead of not having to rely on dead reckoning because there is always a series of easy to follow landmarks.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I haven't found any blank WAC charts yet; let's not get too precious about the definition of land mark.

When I started there were blank WAC charts, they had not mapped printed in the big white spaces. Wish I had kept them.

 

 

[Teckair]

I think the point is that further out, the land marks are sparse, making accurate dead reckoning essential to find your next landmark, instead of not having to rely on dead reckoning because there is always a series of easy to follow landmarks.

I think the point is the usual load of dribble.

 

 

[M61A1]

I think the point is the usual load of dribble.

I'm not understanding....could you explain?

 

 

[Teckair]

I'm not understanding....could you explain?

VFR navigation is done by using land marks, WACs feature land marks. It is up to the instructor to choose an appropriate area which is not in the students back yard for training. There are way too many people who do not use land marks and use a GPS instead and every so often they come unstuck. To say not using land marks for VFR navigation is best is stupid as that is exactly how it is supposed to be done.