Mudgee

[Gnarly Gnu]

When I started there were blank WAC charts, they had not mapped printed in the big white spaces. Wish I had kept them.

Fantastic! Did you come with the first fleet?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

VFR navigation is done by using land marks, WACs feature land marks. It is up to the instructor to choose an appropriate area which is not in the students back yard for training. There are way too many people who do not use land marks and use a GPS instead and every so often they come unstuck. To say not using land marks for VFR navigation is best is stupid as that is exactly how it is supposed to be done.

Agree, Teck; my point, which seems to have started this discussion, is that I regret not doing my nav training out west where landmarks are few and far apart. That would have forced me to rely more on accurate reading of compass, drift and groundspeed.

It's never too late to learn. I plan several trips over featureless country.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Was it fitted to your aircraft when they repaired it? If not, take your aircraft and your orienteering compass, and away from any building etc, line the aircraft up with magnetic north using the handheld compass, then adjust your aircraft compass to match (there are usually 2 screws under a little plate on the front- I cant remember which one is which, but it's east to tell when you adjust it), repeat this for south, west, east, also n/e, s/e. s/w and n/w, getting it as close as possible for each, then any deviation remaining is recorded on your deviation card. Best done with all normal avionics switched on and engine running.

Thanks for that, M61A1. I took the compass out and gave it to an instrument repairer. The adjustment screws have had a hard life, but I will follow your suggestion.

 

 

[Teckair]

Agree, Teck; my point, which seems to have started this discussion, is that I regret not doing my nav training out west where landmarks are few and far apart. That would have forced me to rely more on accurate reading of compass, drift and groundspeed.It's never too late to learn. I plan several trips over featureless country.

This might be hard to achieve but the Birdsville races might be the shot. I have flown around Roma, Charleville, Dalby, Tara and Broken Hill and found plenty of land marks.

 

 

[M61A1]

VFR navigation is done by using land marks, WACs feature land marks. It is up to the instructor to choose an appropriate area which is not in the students back yard for training. There are way too many people who do not use land marks and use a GPS instead and every so often they come unstuck. To say not using land marks for VFR navigation is best is stupid as that is exactly how it is supposed to be done.

Agreed in regard to the GPS, maybe I could put it this way...Yes the WACs depict landmarks, but further out they are not as easy to identify when inexperienced, as the plentiful and obvious ones on the east coast. Dead reckoning is a skill required in the syllabus and to navigate properly. I doubt that any statement was meant to say there are no landmarks, or that you shouldn't use them.

[facthunter]

A "feature" to be useful has to be verifiable to a high degree of certainty, if you are going to rely on it for navigation. Google map is far better than a WAC chart. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

Maybe we are all on the same page with this, what I am trying to say is I doubt if many instructors would be able to do trips way out west as it would not be practicable.

 

 

[M61A1]

Thanks for that, M61A1. I took the compass out and gave it to an instrument repairer. The adjustment screws have had a hard life, but I will follow your suggestion.

Ideally you should use a non-ferrous screw driver, if you must use a steel one, adjust it, then take the screwdriver away from the compass, and see where it settles.

 

 

[Yenn]

If you are going to adjust your compass, go for it. But be advised the correct pocedure is similar to M61Ais post, but not identical. Have a look at the correct way to do it and you will then get a closer reading. I have it written down, but i think the procedure will be on the RAAus site and several others.

 

 

[M61A1]

If you are going to adjust your compass, go for it. But be advised the correct pocedure is similar to M61Ais post, but not identical. Have a look at the correct way to do it and you will then get a closer reading. I have it written down, but i think the procedure will be on the RAAus site and several others.

Try this pdf, I was going from memory before..gets into it around Ch 8. I would go with the simplified method in Ch11.

compass swing.pdf

 

compass swing.pdf

 

compass swing.pdf

[SDQDI]

I fly out to Hillston occasionally and enjoy it as I've spent a bit of time out there recognising landmarks from over 5000agl is relatively easy BUT if you aren't familiar with the area and you had to fly at 1000 agl it is a totally different picture. Like OK was saying we are a bit spoilt where we are and also along the coast as there is very obvious landmarks that make navigation easy. It is harder when there are no hills or towns within sight and all you can see is malley scrub broken up by nondescript farm land and scattered gravel roads which could be just farm roads.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you have a rail line, power line or significant road, on track or off to one side as a fall back reference you have some certainty. of being somewhere near where you need to be. At low altitudes the hills are visible but don't stand out much once you have a bit of height. Flying an accurate compass course helps, and you should be looking for indications of wind direction as you go along. A forced landing in a lot of the country I have just driven through. (Darwin ISA) unless you land on a road of some kind would be a daunting prospect, at times. Plenty of rocks to ruin your day. and you won't be seen if there are no roads near you. Nev

 

 

[ozbear]

If you have a rail line, power line or significant road, on track or off to one side as a fall back reference you have some certainty. of being somewhere near where you need to be. At low altitudes the hills are visible but don't stand out much once you have a bit of height. Flying an accurate compass course helps, and you should be looking for indications of wind direction as you go along. A forced landing in a lot of the country I have just driven through. (Darwin ISA) unless you land on a road of some kind would be a daunting prospect, at times. Plenty of rocks to ruin your day. and you won't be seen if there are no roads near you. Nev

Hi Nev just think of the very first flying doctors following roads railway lines and rivers by moonlight

 

 

[M61A1]

What does a compas swing have to do with the tragic death of 2 aviators ?

Sorry, just an offshoot to the conversation

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Fantastic! Did you come with the first fleet?

Not quite the first fleet, but my first flight in the NT in 1972. I flew Broken Hill to Ayers Rock, Darwin and Mount Isa then back via Birdsville. The WAC charts in the NT and across to Mt Isa had those big white blanks where today they accurately show the sand dunes. One of the WAC. Charts was about two thirds blank., I think it was the one north and west of Ayers Rock. I avoided the white spaces but the meteorologists went on strike and I had to fly legs with no forecast winds.

 

 

[Teckair]

What does a compas swing have to do with the tragic death of 2 aviators ?

Thread drift happens all the time.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Traveling around in the Turbine Beaver years ago i used to do the nav to keep me current. First day i started to get annoyed because we kept arriving everywhere way off to the right of track. Getting peeved off . Next day checked and rechecked then pilot received some trafficinfo on radio and wrote down traffics call signs then put the metal pen back on the compass holder and the compass swung 20 odd degrees. DOH.

 

 

[alf jessup]

That will do it Ozzie

 

 

[Maurice Wright]

interesting to note in one report i have read, is that both occupants, were not found inside the aircraft, looks like they survived the crash, exited the aircraft, then succumbed to injuries.. or quite possible the pilot and passenger suffered heart attacks as shock set in, or the crash was caused by the pilot suffering something that incapacitated him/her, and the passenger suffering a heart attack from shock after the event... all purely speculation based on something i read that might or might not be factual... im sure the facts will come out shortly...

As you were not at the crash site it is very irresponsible to be presenting your "interesting report" regarding the positions of both occupants of the aircraft. I am one of the other pilots who was in the party flying into Mudgee that day and at the crash site I could see that the pilot was still in the aircraft and that his passenger, his wife, had been removed to be worked on by the ambulance crew for half an hour in an attempt to resuscitate her. They were both friends of mine & the other people in our party so don't raise spurious speculations without knowing the facts. To have to aid the police in the official identification of the deceased the next day at the local hospital is something I hope you don't ever have to do.

 

 

[Ultralights]

You are correct in that i do not know any of the facts, unfortunately i have inquisitive mind with similar matters as im studying aircraft and incident investigations through a university.

 

My interest was peaked after being involved in a well publicised fatal aircraft incident investigation myself.

 

my intention is to give what i can back to the community and help prevent future accidents.

 

I made my comments based on all the available info i had at the time, which has now proven to not be factual, and was working through different possible scenarios based on the only info i had available to me at that specific time, just as all investigations begin..

 

I am truly sorry if i have caused you, or anyone else effected by this tragedy offence by my comments, and offer you my sincerest condolences in this time.

 

Sincerely Rob.

 

 

[ave8rr]

ATSB prelim Report.

 

http://www.atsb.com.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ao-2014-149.aspx

 

Mike

 

 

[Teckair]

I hope they find out what happened.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Too early to comment yet.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I wonder why the report refers to a "non standard approach which included an orbit"

 

Whats "non standard" about orbiting over the airfield to determine wind etc?

 

Looked like a standard mid field crosswind join to me? Doesnt get any more "standard then that?

 

 

[Keenaviator]

The track log doesn't appear to be consistent with witness reports of a low power go around either - just an over flight, orbit, mid down wind joining of the circuit, base and final.