Southern Tablelands, Goulburn 27/4/13 - Coroner Report

[turboplanner]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/complacency-amateur-rules-contributed-to-fatal-glider-collision-coroner-finds-20141002-10peab.html

 

This one could involve the Club, GFA and CASA is someone decides to take action.

 

 

[Teckair]

And there are those who think we should model ourselves on the operations of the GFA.

 

 

[Downunder]

I did some training on a strip that had gliders.

 

I was told that they were not on my frequency but don't worry they will see and avoid you. This is in the context of doing circuits, takeoff and landing.

 

Unnerved me qite a bit......

 

 

[kaz3g]

I did some training on a strip that had gliders.I was told that they were not on my frequency but don't worry they will see and avoid you. This is in the context of doing circuits, takeoff and landing.

Unnerved me qite a bit......

Hi DU

 

That hasn't been my experience. I did around 500 hours in gliders and still fly in to places like Tocumwal and Benalla where there are major gliding activities. All aircraft fitted with radios are expected to use the appropriate CTAF when flying there.

 

I think the reporting is at best a little unfair because, as explained in the text of the article not the headline or opening remarks, the Coroner made no finding of fact regarding complacency, etc. Her Honour merely surmised that perhaps it was an issue.

 

Coroners clearly need to be careful with their remarks lest they be picked up on and misconstrued. It is not their job to add to conjecture but rather to confine themselves to observable facts from which they can draw proper inferences.

 

It was also unfortunate that Her Honour appeared to have been misinformed as to the ordinary situation that prevails where aircraft routinely land and take off from the same runway. Gliders are no different in this regard because they clearly must both depart and arrive into wind.

 

And I'm not sure what Her Honour is suggesting about ground communications but these need to very carefully take into account the Regs regarding unauthorised ground to air transmissions of a traffic control nature.

 

Finally, it isn't clear from the media article whether Her Honour gave full cogency to the need to comply with the rules of the air the failure of which appears to lie at the root of this very sad situation.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Teckair]

I can quote quite a few things about glider ops which I felt were unsatisfactory and use of the radio is right up there. I felt airmanship and training standards were unsatisfactory. I have had incidents involving glider ops at Caboolture and Boonah and problems with lack of competency at other locations. Stuff like an instructor who thinks you can tack like a sail boat when there is a head wind and another guy who reckons you cannot lay off drift in a glider because there is no engine to pull the nose around. And these people were NOT pulling my leg.

 

Richard.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Not my experience either; glider radios used (in the 1960s) to be poor, often in the CB band, and gliding ops had some specific assigned frequencies. Most gliding clubs, in the past, operated where carriage and use of radio was not mandatory. However they are now required to use VHF COM and the CTAF frequency, when one is applicable. The Bundaberg club - of which I am a member - has good radio discipline. I'm not sure whether all country clubs will have caught up with this; but it's clearly spelled out in the GFA operations manual.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I did some training on a strip that had gliders.I was told that they were not on my frequency but don't worry they will see and avoid you. This is in the context of doing circuits, takeoff and landing.

Unnerved me qite a bit......

That whole "they will see and avoid" thing is in absolute contradiction to the rules, as I understand it the glider has absolute right of way, they can hardly go round, unless they have altitude they can trade off for another circuit, something only they will be able to assess correctly.

 

I was taught if you have an engine and its working then let the glider have the right of way the rules allocate to it, especially if the radio isn't working between you two....

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Not my experience either; glider radios used (in the 1960s) to be poor, often in the CB band, and gliding ops had some specific assigned frequencies. Most gliding clubs, in the past, operated where carriage and use of radio was not mandatory. However they are now required to use VHF COM and the CTAF frequency, when one is applicable. The Bundaberg club - of which I am a member - has good radio discipline. I'm not sure whether all country clubs will have caught up with this; but it's clearly spelled out in the GFA operations manual.

I agree...up to a point.....If a glider has been out on a long trip then the radio working correctly when finally back in the circuit is a function of the battery being able to work the radio for the time that the trip has taken, after all, aside from small solar panel in the cockpit there is no power generation capability that I know of that they (true glider only) have.

 

Andy

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I agree...up to a point.....If a glider has been out on a long trip then the radio working correctly when finally back in the circuit is a function of the battery being able to work the radio for the time that the trip has taken, after all, aside from small solar panel in the cockpit there is no power generation capability that I know of that they (true glider only) have.Andy

Quite true. For what it's worth - a common battery in glider use is the Yuasa REW45-12, which is nominally eight amp-hours capacity. Most of the modern radios use under 300 mA on "receive" and around 2.5 amps on "transmit". Glider pilots do not generally transmit unnecessarily; if you assume the transmit time is 5% of total use, the average current drain would be around 410 mA; so a fully-charged REW45-12 would give about 19.5 hours of use. So if the batteries are fully charged overnight - which is normal gliding club discipline - there would be ample electrical power for a day's flying. Normal usage would use about 40% of the battery's capacity, so it will have a reasonable life under that usage.

Because a glider cannot normally "go around", mixed usage on a field is sometimes arranged with the glider strip parallel to the "power" strip, or otherwise segregated; a typical example is Tocumwal. This may extend to the gliders doing opposite-hand circuits to the power aircraft. Gliders usually use a considerably "tighter" circuit pattern than powered aircraft. Tug aircraft usually fly the same circuit pattern as the gliders.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Indeed capacity at new would give the usage you suggest........however after a year or 2 of fairly deep cycle discharge/recharge it would not surprise at all if the actual capacity is significantly less than 50% of rated......

 

When I flew out of Gawler in SA it was not at all unusual to have gliders returning from long flights with radio calls all but unintelligible because the audio was distorted due to low battery remaining.......At the end of the day however with standardised calls you only really needed to hear a call being made (even unintelligible) to get your eyes back outside where they belonged. (Well I presumed low battery capacity...it may also have been due to the pilot being completely dehydrated as well!!! and good for a croak or 2 rather than real words!)

 

Mixed Operations at Gawler were no real issue, we all used the same strip and the gliding gang had the machines off the strip within a few minutes of touchdown. Tugs seem to me to spend a lot of time almost knife edge (well at least wings vertical) ....they seem to get better ROD in that attitude and can mix in a bit of throttle to help prevent shock cooling......they are easy to spot when the wing is vertical though....

 

Andy

 

 

[kaz3g]

This was a collision between two gliders using the same airstrip. It is not revealed in the media article whether it was a winch launch or an aerotow although the former would provide a better explanation of the height at which the collision occurred.

 

The winch driver, if there was one, should have had a good view of any approaching aircraft; certainly better than the "wingman".

 

The glider landing had right of way and should have landed to the right of the glider on the ground.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Teckair]

I have been told some glider pilots do not hold the centre line during winching and allow the aircraft to drift with the cross wind, cross wind from the left and the plane landing has a problem landing to the right. I was doing some air work with a glider pilot recently who decided to do a right hand circuit because there was a cross wind

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I have been told some glider pilots do not hold the centre line during winching and allow the aircraft to drift with the cross wind, cross wind from the left and the plane landing has a problem landing to the right. I was doing some air work with a glider pilot recently who decided to do a right hand circuit because there was a cross wind

You certainly seem to dislike glider pilots. The Goulburn accident was a winch launch; the collision occurred about 100 feet above the ground - which hardly allowed the launching aircraft time to drift with the cross wind. The aircraft coming in evidently did not see the aircraft leaving the ground because it was "under his nose" and (I can only assume) had been previously hidden behind the row of trees. The winch driver, one might suppose, could have seen the aircraft on final - but he's about a mile away, and the strip, as I recall, has a hump in it - so if the incoming aircraft was making a low approach, it may have been below his line of sight. There are certainly questions that the available data do not answer. But you might, perhaps, at least acknowledge the few facts that are available, rather then shooting from the hip.

 

 

[Teckair]

You certainly seem to dislike glider pilots.

Not correct, just what some of them do.

 

But you might, perhaps, at least acknowledge the few facts that are available, rather then shooting from the hip./QUOTE]

Also not true, I have not seen enough facts to make a judgement of any kind, I was merely commenting on a previous post where the comment was made the plane on final should have landed to the right of the one being winched.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I have been told some glider pilots do not hold the centre line during winching and allow the aircraft to drift with the cross wind, cross wind from the left and the plane landing has a problem landing to the right. I was doing some air work with a glider pilot recently who decided to do a right hand circuit because there was a cross wind

I have been told that some pilots of powered aircraft do not hold the centre line as they climb out, but I refuse to believe it because I know we all do it right every time. .

 

It's actually harder to stay centred on a wire than when you are under power because everything happens so fast. But the competent glider pilot strives to do it because that gives the best launch...

 

I don't understand the relationship between the RH circuit and the cross wind...please explain.

 

I guess you can "tack" a glider but can't see why unless it is to avoid an area of sink. Gliders routinely use the crab into wind approach and dive brakes on final rather than side slipping because of the big wingspan set very low to the ground.

 

Are you really SURE they weren't having a lend of you, Richard?

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

?.. The Goulburn accident was a winch launch; the collision occurred about 100 feet above the ground - which hardly allowed the launching aircraft time to drift with the cross wind. The aircraft coming in evidently did not see the aircraft leaving the ground because it was "under his nose" and (I can only assume) had been previously hidden behind the row of trees. The winch driver, one might suppose, could have seen the aircraft on final - but he's about a mile away, and the strip, as I recall, has a hump in it - so if the incoming aircraft was making a low approach, it may have been below his line of sight. There are certainly questions that the available data do not answer. But you might, perhaps, at least acknowledge the few facts that are available, rather then shooting from the hip.

It doesn't gel for me, Dafydd. The victim was allegedly about 100 feet above the ground and clearly also rapidly on his way down the airstrip under winch launch when the collision occurred. That leaves me wondering what the arriving glider was doing at 100' so far down the airstrip and why its pilot couldn't see the planiform shape of the other one filling his windscreen.

 

It will be interesting to read the report when it is published because I see this isn't the only forum making critical comment.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Teckair]

I have been told that some pilots of powered aircraft do not hold the centre line as they climb out, but I refuse to believe it because I know we all do it right every time. .It's actually harder to stay centred on a wire than when you are under power because everything happens so fast. But the competent glider pilot strives to do it because that gives the best launch...Kaz

The story went like this..... if you let the plane drift with the cross wind. if the cable breaks, and you want to should turn back you will be turning into the wind.

 

I don't understand the relationship between the RH circuit and the cross wind...please explain.

The story went like this..... if you are landing towards the North and you have a cross wind from the West and you do a right hand circuit you will avoid having tail wind on base leg and the tendency of being too high, too fast and over shooting final.

 

I guess you can "tack" a glider

And there lies the problem!! Wrong!! Sail boats can tack because they have keel in the water it will not work with aircraft anybody who thinks it will simply does not understand how an aircraft flies.

 

Are you really SURE they weren't having a lend of you, Richard?

Yes about as sure as I can be the tacking guy is happy to tell anybody who will listen about that one, and the worry is there are some who cannot determine if it is correct or not.

 

The non laying off drift boy is someone I have known for years.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The story went like this..... if you let the plane drift with the cross wind. if the cable breaks, and you want to should turn back you will be turning into the wind.

If you stay centred and the cable breaks you can still turn into wind...but I would hope the direction of the turn complies with the circuit direction. The first rule after a cable break is to lower the nose and attain best glide speed. Your expert would appear to be prepared to fly contra-circuit.

 

The story went like this..... if you are landing towards the North and you have a cross wind from the West and you do a right hand circuit you will avoid having tail wind on base leg and the tendency of being too high, too fast and over shooting final.

See above re flying contra-circuit which is dangerous and likely to get the pilot pinged unless due stress of ground.

 

And there lies the problem!! Wrong!! Sail boats can tack because they have keel in the water it will not work with aircraft anybody who thinks it will simply does not understand how an aircraft flies.

Did you notice the inverted commas?

 

I was referring to the zigzag course that is so often flown in order to follow the lift and avoid the sink as the glider pilot attempts to continue on a preferred track. As you say, the reason a yacht can do this effectively and maintain a course into wind is, of course the effect of the keel in the water.

 

The non laying off drift boy is someone I have known for years.

I'm glad he has survived.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Captain]

I write in support of Kaz's original post.

 

 

 

I flew Gliders extensively from Tocumwal and Corowa for a number of years and many of the flights from those strips were 500 kms to 1200 kms cross-country very long bladder straining days.

 

 

 

Having witnessed numerous long days I can say that I NEVER saw a sailplane return without making complete & appropriate radio calls on approach and when in the circuit.

 

 

 

That is probably because the operations at Toc and Corowa were professionally administered, most X-country pilots were experienced and all launches were via aerotow.

 

 

 

I suspect that some Clubs run with less discipline but low battery power should not be permitted to be an issue (if it was), even at the end of an all day flight.

 

 

 

My sailplane and many others have solar panels down the spine and had 4 separate & back-up batteries to drive the multiple flight computers on board.

 

 

 

 

 

[Teckair]

Your expert would appear to be prepared to fly contra-circuit.

Thanks all the same but not my expert. I was just trying to point out some of the short comings I have encountered with gliding operations in various locations. I do not see how any problems can be rectified unless first they are recognised.

Richard.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Very nice aircraft, Captain...I like but I don't recognise!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Captain]

Hi Kaz,

 

 

 

Schleicher ASW28-18E.

 

 

 

[kaz3g]

You make me feel even older. I thought life was good in the 19!

 

That is one beautiful piece of technology.

 

Kaz