Jabiru thru bolt failure.

[nickduncs84]

The biggest reason why I would never buy a Jabiru engine is how the company carries itself. Reputation is and always will be everything and Jabirus is horrid. I don't know enough about engines to know why they fail and who's fault it is, but the comments made by Jabiru both publicly and privately are ridiculous. There is nowhere near enough data about whether the Camit engines are more reliable or not, but I've never heard a bad word about them as company. That's a big deal. I would buy a Camit engine at half the cost of a rotax knowing that I'm taking a bit of a risk but at least won't be dealing with a bunch of unethical morons.

 

So back to the topic of this thread. Surely the damage to Jabirus reputation from an incident like this is far far more expensive than just fixing the bloody engine.

 

 

[DrZoos]

If you had hyundais doing the same thing there would be a recall and it would all be covered free

 

Plus they would never ever blame the consumer...

 

But as i say its not just Jabs.... others do the same...

 

 

[rankamateur]

OK, I have a brand new unstarted 912ULS still in the box, when I hang it on my plane, before I can use it I have to comply with a mandatory service bulletin to change unsatisfactory carb floats it was supplied with, Who should pay for the parts and labour Dr?

 

 

[poteroo]

The numbers speak for themselves in Mervs' case history!

 

In my very limited exposure - 12,000 hrs for 2 engine failures in Continentals, (none in Lycomings)........ but 3 fails necessitating an unplanned landing with Jabirus in only 800 hrs.

 

The numbers were enough for me too. Just couldn't run the risk with students over unfriendly country so now we are embarking on a new phase with a new Rotax.

 

I was an original group owner of a new Victa in the 60's, then a Jab owner for 7 years, and now Brumby. I want to support Aussie manufacturers - but the contract has to be mutual!

 

happy days,

 

 

[dazza 38]

Jabiru's engine reputation is not limited to Australia. I was discussing engines with a French flying instructor a couple of weeks back, and asked him what he thought of Jabiru powerplants. His response? "We have a saying here - Jabiru is ok for private use, but not for school. Only Rotax for school. Too many problems with Jabiru."

That statement from the frenchmen basically says that the engine is too fragile for the training enviroment.

 

 

[nickduncs84]

OK, I have a brand new unstarted 912ULS still in the box, when I hang it on my plane, before I can use it I have to comply with a mandatory service bulletin to change unsatisfactory carb floats it was supplied with, Who should pay for the parts and labour Dr?

It all comes down to meeting or exceeding customers expectations. In aviation, people expect to pay for maintenance related to ADs. They don't expect to pay 20k for an engine that lasts for 300 hours

 

 

[rankamateur]

I agree Nick, but if it was a car, you wouldn't expect to pay for parts or labour if the supplied floats failed or may fail before their normal service life and were the subject of a recall, which is effectively what a mandatory SB is. So why do we expect to wear it? Just because we always have?

 

 

[nickduncs84]

I agree Nick, but if it was a car, you wouldn't expect to pay for parts or labour if the supplied floats failed or may fail before their normal service life and were the subject of a recall, which is effectively what a mandatory SB is. So why do we expect to wear it? Just because we always have?

I'm sure there is a more elegant answer from someone that has been around aviation long enough to know the real answer, but as far as I can see, you've pretty much nailed it. It's that way because it's always been that way. I'm guessing it may also have something to do with the long calendar life of aircraft and aviation engines and the associated issues.

 

 

[Ultralights]

scale of economics, sure, there are plenty of rotax engines, 10's of Thousands.... but Hyundai sells cars by the Millions... if aircraft were built on the same scale, we would get identical service and costs with regards to "recalls"

 

 

[DrZoos]

OK, I have a brand new unstarted 912ULS still in the box, when I hang it on my plane, before I can use it I have to comply with a mandatory service bulletin to change unsatisfactory carb floats it was supplied with, Who should pay for the parts and labour Dr?

Rotax should..and as Bert Flood is the importer and distributor...the buck stops with him

We import shoes from the USA, about $200K per year...we get plenty of warranty claims..some are covered by the USAagent some arent , but the buck stops with us.. and we have never had one customer out of pocket when its a warranty issue...or remotely a warranty issue..

 

we make sure every customer is satisfied even if it costs us money

 

 

[DrZoos]

scale of economics, sure, there are plenty of rotax engines, 10's of Thousands.... but Hyundai sells cars by the Millions... if aircraft were built on the same scale, we would get identical service and costs with regards to "recalls"

If you cant afford to warrant it you cant afford to sell it... this notion that somehow warranty is an added expense is garbage.

When you decide your sale price you establish a margin that includes warranty issues... if thats not acceptable you should not be selling the product

 

 

[SDQDI]

OK, I have a brand new unstarted 912ULS still in the box, when I hang it on my plane, before I can use it I have to comply with a mandatory service bulletin to change unsatisfactory carb floats it was supplied with, Who should pay for the parts and labour Dr?

The SB I read in regards to those carbies stated replacing them doesn't fix the problem as they aren't different to what is in there already, and I think I am right in saying that that SB just relates to checking them and replacing them as necessary. In my FEW dealings with bert flood I have found them extremely helpful in regards to parts under warranty, and they posted the parts to my door free of charge. when they do find a suitable float replacement and if your engine is still in the box I would be surprised if they didn't send you the replacements free of charge, If the engine had been run for 12 months or 100 hrs or whatever they class as their warranty then I would expect to pay for them.

Customer service is a huge part of business and we will always be happy to spend a little bit more if we are getting looked after.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Sadly, this is probably why Jabiru is losing business to these newer engines in the experimental market. That and the high dollar.

 

 

[DrZoos]

At 87c those rotax engines and imported aircraft are about to be 10% dearer...

 

Bodes well for the used valuations

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thats helpful info, thanks for that.

 

 

[Marty_d]

At 87c those rotax engines and imported aircraft are about to be 10% dearer...Bodes well for the used valuations

Depends whether you're buying or selling!

 

 

[alf jessup]

At 87c those rotax engines and imported aircraft are about to be 10% dearer...Bodes well for the used valuations

And about 99% more reliable, not a bad trade off

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Deb, I reckon it has been very helpful. :) you don't have to read it you know?

 

 

[turboplanner]

He can't help himself.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes if you read the posts, the motor was overhauled by the factory after the last failure. Hence our disappointment in the quality of the job.

 

 

[facthunter]

A bent push rod is usually caused by a stuck valve. If the LYC. motor got to 200 hours it wouldn't be caused by initial tightness of the guide . (Unlikely in any case). Having a motor idle (not used ) without being inhibited would be a possible cause , or running it for a short period and shutting it down before it is fully hot will cause exhaust valve stem corrosion. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Sometimes friction additives build up in the guide. It only has to jamb momentarily. Could it have run a high head temp, for a while? Nev

 

 

[deadstick]

oil is suspectedTo early to tell yet

Though you are happy to throw a "thought they were perfect???" line out there! they certainly are a LOT better than the engine under discussion in this thread!

 

Frankly Deb, The factory states that the single CHT configuration is fine and actively encourage owners not to worry about installation of multi probes ( ipersonally think its an own goal but it is a published aircraft configuration). This aircraft is a factory built LSA, reliant on the engineering approval of the factory itself for any modification from standard.

 

How can an owner already pushed to the wall financially spend upwards of $6k on a suite of sensors that the factory themselves say are unnecessary? Are you inferring that if the sensors were fitted then this failure would have been avoided? Im sure the factory would be fitting them as standard fit if that's all it takes and why does it happen to better equipped jabs as well. I have seen heads creep around the exhaust valve side on these things with no indication of overtemp in the Dynon data.

 

I've seen heads crack between the intake and exhaust flanges again without any indication in the data.

 

I have seen a head crack straight down the face of the valve guide on an intake side.

 

Not to mention valve seats fall out at idle without any back up data.

 

It appears that Camit may be onto something when it comes to a change in material for this component!

 

The owner of Camit himself told me that the hydraulic engines have been terrible!

 

And aside from all this the factory owes this young lady, if not legally then morally!

 

 

[Oscar]

An MGL 'Extreme' EFIS - with full EMIS capability, including recording, with four CHT and four egt probes, costs less that $2k. ( http://www.lightflying.com.au/Stratomaster Pages/StratoPrices.htm)

 

Yes, CAMit engines are an order of magnitude improved and the calibrated test results to prove it will shortly be forthcoming. However, the assertion that the 'base' of the Jabiru engine is as bad as you decry, is statistically disproved; it's the engines you maintain that are out on the extreme end of the reliability bell-curve. If I were an L2, I'd not be touting your record when there are numerous examples of FTF's getting highly acceptable life-times from Jab. engines due to good maintenance and good use management practices.

 

Post moderated...warning on content (Mod)

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I read all the Jabiru posts on this forum. I am truly amazed at the problems that the factory apparently wipe their hands of problems from some owners.

 

I have had two Jabs, one home built and the latest 230d now 7 years old this month.

 

In all that time I have had excellent service, notably parts and labour supplied out of warranty.

 

I get asked what fuel, oil and services are used and done. Never a problem.

 

I guess that because my approach has been cordial and kept to the facts that there have never been any problems.

 

Chap near me has recently traded in his engine for a new one after just shy of 2000 hours.

 

It was still performing well but he decided to change over due to some minor oil leaks.

 

Mine has done 460 hours and just finished the 12 monthly service, all ok, leak down etc.

 

Not knowing all the facts and the factory's response it's not possible to make a suggestion, but hope that it gets sorted out soon.

 

Phil