DrZoos Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 You can get a great warranty on a $13,000 nissan micra....l But buy a jab or other $80-$150 k aircraft and your warranty is useless 2
dazza 38 Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 No mine is the manufacturer and importer. . The rotax is fine.The only reason these guys get away with this crap is because we pay over $40k and the accc doesnt cover us... Otherwise they would be in serious poo... We need to start a fund towards holding these importers and jabs accountable... Actually raa should take this up for us against dodgy warranties.... After all we are already an association of members Australia has statuary warranty which means that any product sold here must meet consumer expectation to last without failure with in a reasonable time frame. (Normally geared to purchase price, by that I mean a $10 toy wont last long, but a hundred thousand dollar aeroplane should last a very long time as long as regular maintenace is carried out.) And that time frame is normally longer than the manufacturers warranty. I would be heading fown that road if I was you.I am not sure how it plays out in other states but here in QLD, most companies play ball when statuary warranty is mentioned. 1
jetjr Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Think youll find it changes over $40k value, statutory warranty not the same. Below this as a manufacturer laws are scary and we wonder why things are expensive here.
turboplanner Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 No mine is the manufacturer and importer. . The rotax is fine.The only reason these guys get away with this crap is because we pay over $40k and the accc doesnt cover us... Otherwise they would be in serious poo... We need to start a fund towards holding these importers and jabs accountable... Actually raa should take this up for us against dodgy warranties.... After all we are already an association of members Can you provide a link to this $40,000 cutoff point? In the material I checked on Statutory warranty there wasn't a dollar value mentioned, and it would be nice if this person could have her case heard by a Tribunal. This is definitely not planned obsolescence. If you think that through, that is simply fraud with dire consequences, and given the potential to kill someone during a forced landing which could be culpable negligence and bring a manslaughter charge to the manufacturer. 1
DrZoos Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 The law still covers it and ultimately they are liable... But you have to take them to court over it yourself... The accc will help and will provide guidance , but they wont enforce or prosecute on a "luxury" non domestic product... Surely we could get one hell of a fund together pretty quick and manufacturers would then have to comply when the RA-Aus enforcment section called them.. Imagine manufacturer XYZ who notoriously breaches whats expected under warranty... continues to try and shirk responsibilities... little old pilot ABC wont challenge them cause its not worth it... but multiply that across our association and we have member after member getting screwed... as an association we shouldnt be letting that happen.. by definition its our association that should provide strength and support in this matter... Or has our association just become a rule maker with a big stick.. Well worth thinking about.. I for one would happily pay $20-30 p.a. to have an association that will protect members when they need it, by using its combined might. Im not a unionist and I dont like the way most unions behave.. But an association should be banding together on these types of issues in the future.. 1
rhysmcc Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 I'm sure the board is all over this issue but maybe can't make the details public, maybe someone at the AGM could raise it as a question? 2 1 1
fly_tornado Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Is the board using the tactic of silence to shame Jabiru? 1 1
Old Koreelah Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 I totally agree with efforts to improve reliability of the Jab. engine. Purchasers of future engines may be able to choose between Jab or CAMit, but I bet the latter is more pricey. The problem is we current owners; improving the after-sales or after-repair service will cost more. This will ultimately nudge up the price of the engine.
Russ Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 " nudge it up " .......happily pay more for safety. Bring on these Camit engines.....pleeeeze. ( for my cert J 160C ) 2
rhysmcc Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Why would Jabiru ever approve a different engine for their aircraft and thus lose money and sales on their engine? Wishful thinking. The board couldn't come out and slander another company without some kind of proof or investigation. It doesn't have the protection like CASA and can be sued just like any other company. They can however take the concerns of members to Jabiru and investigate the issue (which i'm sure they are doing) 1
Guest Andys@coffs Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 or....you can remember that we act on behalf of CASA and can pass back as needed, it isn't just downhill traffic....which should not be construed as anything relating to J just a pointing out of realities, we fly with exemptions, but the overwhelming majority of CASA's rules still apply to us individually and collectively in terms of the association. Andy
rankamateur Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 The law still covers it and ultimately they are liable... But you have to take them to court over it yourself... The accc will help and will provide guidance , but they wont enforce or prosecute on a "luxury" non domestic product...Surely we could get one hell of a fund together pretty quick and manufacturers would then have to comply when the RA-Aus enforcment section called them.. Imagine manufacturer XYZ who notoriously breaches whats expected under warranty... continues to try and shirk responsibilities... little old pilot ABC wont challenge them cause its not worth it... but multiply that across our association and we have member after member getting screwed... as an association we shouldnt be letting that happen.. by definition its our association that should provide strength and support in this matter... Or has our association just become a rule maker with a big stick.. Well worth thinking about.. I for one would happily pay $20-30 p.a. to have an association that will protect members when they need it, by using its combined might. Im not a unionist and I dont like the way most unions behave.. But an association should be banding together on these types of issues in the future.. All this would do, given the volume of unsatisfactory warranty resolutions, is drive the J factory straight into bankruptcy. Now wouldn't that be a wonderful outcome for factory built aircraft owners. 6 1
frank marriott Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 given the volume of unsatisfactory warranty resolutions Interesting comment. I know a lot of Jab owners who have a completely different opinion. The only complaints I have heard of are here, and "most" of the noise being made by non Jab owners. That in itself "may" suggest something. [not refering to any particular case only the "volume" reference] 1 2 1 1
motzartmerv Posted October 11, 2014 Author Posted October 11, 2014 Probably some truth in that Frank. I believe Im more than qualified to express a reasonably accurate opinion on the reliability and factory support of these engines, having operated multiple acft, multiple types, in multiple schools in multiple locations around NSW and QLD. Im not just a scorned Owner of ONE jab, or someone whos listens to hype and regurgitates it. Im speaking from years of experience running these things in the training environment. Not one aircraft, not one model. ALL models. This particular aircraft has NEVER over heated. It has NEVER run hot. Its always ran quite cool. Yes, tensioning the heads is in the service schedule (unlike every other 4 stroke engine known to man kind, this one needs its heads checked at regular intervals...Interesting??) This aircraft was running fine until Jab forced us to change the head bolts..Then it shat due to THE WRONG PARTS BEING SUPPLIED BY THE FACTORY. All other problems have stemmed from that stuff up... No warranty, not even so much as an appology.. Just, suck it up... Im sick of hearing " i know plenty of owners who havnt had a problem" as some sort of argument..Its exactly how it should be,, We should NOT be having these problems at all. And yet, we are.. I did some rough maths the other day. My school has ran 9 Jabs over 6 years J230, J170, J160, Lsa55 More than 6000 hours, all jabs combined 3 separate locations, two states 5 different engineers I reckon Ive got an "informed" opinion hey? 1 3 1 1
rankamateur Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Well frank if Jabiru was hit up by multiple claims as suggested in the post, my comment was meant to point out that Jabiru owners, who mostly have Jabiru engines, would be left with factory built planes with no factory! That would leave you all out in the cold with an orphan. After you get off your high horse and think about it, it won't matter if you like it or loath it, you won't be able to put it on line , earn from it or sell it to someone who would have done the same. You lose! Unlike you I have personally spoken to quite a few owners, outside this forum, who don't share your glowing views. If you hear everything instead of only what you want to hear you might hear the same. 1 1
frank marriott Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Probably some truth in that Frank. I believe Im more than qualified to express a reasonably accurate opinion on the reliability and factory support of these engines, having operated multiple acft, multiple types, in multiple schools in multiple locations around NSW and QLD. Im not just a scorned Owner of ONE jab, or someone whos listens to hype and regurgitates it. Im speaking from years of experience running these things in the training environment. Not one aircraft, not one model. ALL models.This particular aircraft has NEVER over heated. It has NEVER run hot. Its always ran quite cool. Yes, tensioning the heads is in the service schedule (unlike every other 4 stroke engine known to man kind, this one needs its heads checked at regular intervals...Interesting??) This aircraft was running fine until Jab forced us to change the head bolts..Then it shat due to THE WRONG PARTS BEING SUPPLIED BY THE FACTORY. All other problems have stemmed from that stuff up... No warranty, not even so much as an appology.. Just, suck it up... Im sick of hearing " i know plenty of owners who havnt had a problem" as some sort of argument..Its exactly how it should be,, We should NOT be having these problems at all. And yet, we are.. I did some rough maths the other day. My school has ran 9 Jabs over 6 years J230, J170, J160, Lsa55 More than 6000 hours, all jabs combined 3 separate locations, two states 5 different engineers I reckon Ive got an "informed" opinion hey? Andy, I am aware of your position and can appreciate it, that was why the inclusion of "most" not "all" and not refering to any particular incident.
motzartmerv Posted October 11, 2014 Author Posted October 11, 2014 I know mate, just adding some context to where I get the opinion from.
Marty_d Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Jabiru's engine reputation is not limited to Australia. I was discussing engines with a French flying instructor a couple of weeks back, and asked him what he thought of Jabiru powerplants. His response? "We have a saying here - Jabiru is ok for private use, but not for school. Only Rotax for school. Too many problems with Jabiru."
deadstick Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Do you get warranty from LAME on a rebuild?Recessed head says overheating and someone keeps tensioning down, just sayin. Yep you do get a warranty on work performed by a LAME, a warranty that it has been undertaken in accordance with the latest practices and documentation. The heads! don't be mistaken in identifying head recess as being caused by hot torqueing, a recess on one side ( nearly always the exhaust side indicates heat, in this case having a known history of the services completed I would say the head has simply been hot! There is a reason why Camit have changed the spec of the aluminium with their version and not having any cockpit indication of a thermal runaway (this aircraft has one CHT gauge IIRC) how can you blame an operator who keeps her aircraft in spec and operated IAW the manufacturers best practices. Poor girl has had one thing after another! within the first 100 hours the engine failed on her at the end of the strip on a go-around ( sounded like it dropped a pot) causing a hard landing and broken aircraft, back to the factory on a trailer. Aircraft fixed, returned to owner, Jabiru did not even lift the heads to have a look, just ran the engine and returned to service, blaming ice IIRC, a week or so later the thru bolt SB came out, ( could have at least done that for her) so I am tasked with carrying this out, I removed the heads to find one of the pistons with a big smiley from valve impact, quickly add 2 and 2 together and surmise that lifter pump had caused the dropped pot accident previously, I call Jabiru to which I get an oh that's pretty likely the cause and a just check the valve for damage and put it back together and that its common!!!! WTF. So I elected to replace the valve blend the smiley on the piston crown and add a new lifter. Thru bolts and studs done and away it goes, some time later owner describes an off pulse shudder every now and then in the cruise, but no performance issues or mag drops so after discussing further we agree it was probably icing but an inspection of the engine would be prudent working back to front I check the plugs caps and rotors, Good burn colour, minor corrosion under the caps that's it, hmm check the anti tamper paint on the fly wheel bolts, nil movement its not until I get to the front that I notice a missing thru bolt stud! WTF I instantly think crap is my torque wrench in calibration? sticker says yes but I sent it away anyhoo! came back all good! a discussion with the owner and we both agree that the factory should handle the strip and rebuild so its removed and sent on its way, a little while later the owner receives a call stating that they had supplied the wrong hardware for the job causing the failure! still a 12 point nut but machined too small on the radius! so they warrant the thru bolts! LOL but nothing else! $4k later she gets the engine back its installed and all's good, I quickly notice that its still got the 3/8 thru bolts and studs fitted! Why wouldn't they machine the cases for 7/16 whilst they were line boring it? as their own advice dictates that a broken thru bolt necessitates the splitting of the cases, new tighter fit dowels and an upgrade of hardware etc? in fact they replaced the camshaft due wear beyond limits, one cylinder and a few other bits and pieces but no larger bolts. Next on the agenda the owner feels something strange on the first pull through of the day, an inspection reveals broken flywheel bolts ( latest configuration),defect repaired and away it goes, and now she has another broken thru bolt. you have gotta feel for her took the leap purchased a new plane and watched her peers with different brands fly hour after hour of trouble free flying. However I must say I did receive excellent customer support this week, I recently had a mechanical pump start leaking, engine had 35 hours on it but was just outside the 1 year warranty, so I purchased a replacement fitted it up ran the aircraft up to full power and it cant supply enough fuel! I rang the engine department who graciously offered to replace the unit under warranty and stated that they are having a run of issues with pumps since changing supplier. 1 7
motzartmerv Posted October 11, 2014 Author Posted October 11, 2014 Thats just this aircraft... Who wants to hear about the other 8? 1
fly_tornado Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Frank is positive this is just an anomaly, so let's this slide. 1
DrZoos Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Im not targeting Jabs. i think its industry wide except a few... but i would love to see the RA-Aus bargaining on behalf of members whether its a Jab, or other... 1
DrZoos Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 I'm not after bankruptcy, although if bankruptcy was the only option, wouldn't that imply the manufacturer actually has legal responsibility and is actually passing the real cost onto users???? I have absolutely no agenda here other then we are an association and we ought to act like it , by using our collective power to ensure members rights are upheld.. Nothing more nothing less. I dont want any member to receive 0.000001% more then they are entitled to, bit i certainly dont want to see them thousands out of pocket just because the legal costs of enforcing rights are disproportionate to the cost of a resolution. As it stands right now we pay to be an association. But when it comes to warranties we act like individuals. it seems like the only way we act like an association is to enforce rules on all of us. I dont care whether its Camit Rotax or Jab, if they charge us premium prices they shoudl give us a warranty thats as good as any other area of Australian consumers and if they wont we should band together to enforce it. 2
DrZoos Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Well frank if Jabiru was hit up by multiple claims as suggested in the post, my comment was meant to point out that Jabiru owners, who mostly have Jabiru engines, would be left with factory built planes with no factory! That would leave you all out in the cold with an orphan. After you get off your high horse and think about it, it won't matter if you like it or loath it, you won't be able to put it on line , earn from it or sell it to someone who would have done the same. You lose! Unlike you I have personally spoken to quite a few owners, outside this forum, who don't share your glowing views. If you hear everything instead of only what you want to hear you might hear the same. Isnt that the whole point we are being screwed no matter who the perpetrator is for fear of costs or repercussions... so we continue on in fear that company XYZ might go belly up and we let it go on and on... what a load of crap.... thats no way to do business or act as an association... the way to act os deal with the problem and find a suitable solution... that is such a stupid naive short termed view.... ok lets let it go on another 5 years then we have another 200 owners get screwed... sorry dude but that just ridiculous 1
DrZoos Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 If a company cant sell a product and warrant its reliability as required in the jurisdiction the product is sold then its uneconomic... and its just passing off its costs to someone else....usually the consumer 1
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now