Is flying dying due to cost or enthusiasm

[maddog63]

Cost will always be an issue in this day and age as more financial demands are made on the average pay packet. But RAA has a great platform for lower cost aviation. RAA has a flagship airshow (we all remember how excited we were at our first airshow and in some cases, I'm sure, this has cemented our passion in aviation) that could and should be used to promote our association. I believe that to effectively do this (and I'm not saying where it should be, this has been covered in other forums ) it should be moved closer to a major population centre, or centres. so that people can take only the day to go and see what we are all about. This may encourage the younger people to have a look, have a ride and get hooked.

 

Mick

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Interesting, I had a look at the Cessna 172 as an example ,cost in 1969 was $12500 usd and in 2013 was $274900 , it works out that in 1969 it would take 166 weeks pay but now it's 249, odd that it's was cheaper to buy than rent years ago but the opposite nowadays.They had a women in aviation day at our field last year and had a really big turn out, maybe the open day thing is a consideration, I've often thought if a school ran a competition on the radio for a few free TIFs in conjunction with an open day kind of thing it might build a bit of exposure. A lot has to do with the school aswell , YLIL is generally pretty busy but the school at YCEM doesn't do anywhere the hours ,not sure why though,

The big difference is the product liability insurance.

 

 

[metalman]

The big difference is the product liability insurance.

That's a lot of insurance! A shame but true, perhaps if we used a $100k LSA is only 90 weeks wages you wouldn't get the same longevity as a 1969 C150 ( 152 weeks wages in 1970) but the performance would be better and the cost of running it would be lower, the thing I see is not that flying is dearer but we really do have our dollar dragged many more different ways.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Once, girls became interested in boys who were flying. And also there were some attractive girls who were learning to fly. Without that mix, aero clubs are not the same.

 

 

[flyerme]

IMO-Real ultralight flying is still dirt cheap ? If you want it to be !!!!!

 

My First ULTRALIGHT in 2005 cost $3000.( my age 27)

 

Number 2 ,in 2011 cost $3500( fully enclosed cockpit)

 

Wanting something that looked conventional and a bit faster in 2012 cost me $6000 ( still affordable)

 

Maintanence on the 2 strokes easily affordable.even a 2 seater side by side seating can be easily bought for 5-10 k.

 

I have a family friend which visits most months , he always believed flying to be well out of reach. And thought ULTRALIGHTS( you remember them?those funny looking things with lawn mower engines ,wrapped in rags) were expensive.

 

I now have him not only preaching the affordability but saving for his first ULTRALIGHT - and certificate . He is shooting for $10,000

 

To cover his certificate and has lined up a ready to fly thruster Gemini 2 seat side by side. $5000( which is happily waiting for him). Training at FACON HAWK in the thruster = $150ph. he was going to save for a second hand motorbike but when he realised for the same amount of savings he WILL be flying with his new certificate from his farm in his own ultralight. Well- need I say ,more.!

 

It's not the first time either ,I have 2 other friends whom also will join the ranks now they know how affordable it can be.

 

So flying true ultralight aircraft is still very much affordable if you want it to be.

 

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

That's a lot of insurance! A shame but true, perhaps if we used a $100k LSA is only 90 weeks wages you wouldn't get the same longevity as a 1969 C150 ( 152 weeks wages in 1970) but the performance would be better and the cost of running it would be lower, the thing I see is not that flying is dearer but we really do have our dollar dragged many more different ways.

Yep. Why do you think Cessna put so much effort into the C208? And most other manufacturers stopped offering singles altogether? The product liability insurance cost for a 172 isn't that much less costly for a 208, so it's a much larger proportion of the selling price. The litigious society shot itself in the foot.

 

 

[facthunter]

They have more Lawyers per capita than anyone else by a mile. That fact imposes a cost factor that must be taken into account in the overall situation for manufacturers and others. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

looking at then and now is a bit counter productive, we really need to look at the now and the future. Aviation across all levels in Australia from Qantas to the RAA is in some sort of trouble.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

looking at then and now is a bit counter productive, we really need to look at the now and the future. Aviation across all levels in Australia from Qantas to the RAA is in some sort of trouble.

You can't turn history back; but it's important to understand why we are in the current situation; the litigious society is mainly responsible - and it's a product of the concept that anything that happens is always somebody else's fault and/or the Gummint orter fix it.

Protecting consumers from unscrupulous manufacturers has been a major focus for the last four decades; but the consumers remain largely ignorant of the fact that the job of doing this has been placed on the manufacturers, because they are in a position to extract the cost from their customers - i.e. the consumer get protection, whether he wants it or not; and the consumer pays for it, plus the underwriters' profit, plus the lawyers' profit - whether he wants to or not.

 

I think it's about time the emphasis shifted a bit, to protecting the consumers from thermselves.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Re catching the Kids' interest, I've been wondering (on the odd occasion I've been driving somewhere, in lieu of listening to the radio) whether there would be any merit in carting the dead Blanik I purchased for spares, along to the local primary school, and maybe showing the kids a video; I've noticed at places like the Paris air show, that there's no substitute for a piece of real hardware that people can walk around (and touch, if there's an attendant there to stop them pinching bits). You forget pictures as soon as you walk to the next exhibit, but you remember hardware, if it grabs you.My wife, who was a schoolteacher, thinks this would be a waste of time and effort; but I notice a lot of aeronautical engineering uni courses are now building kit aircraft as part of the coursework.

Good idea Dafydd - you should do it. Schools are usually very supportive of people bringing in interesting things to generate discussion with the kids. I know I would have loved it if someone had done that when I was in primary school, but then I was always plane mad.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Good airshows are what's needed IMHO. Couple of weeks ago I went to Shuttleworth Old Warden "Race Day" and by crikey the Poms can put on a good show. Heaps of racing aircraft from the 1930's, including DH-88 Comet "Grosvenor House", P-51D, Hurricane, Lysander, heaps more. And yes while the majority of attendees had grey hair and large cameras, there were plenty of kids oohing and ahhhing over the planes.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

there were plenty of kids oohing and ahhhing over the planes.

One thing lacking for younger Gen, IMO, is a lack of modern 'Xtreme' flavouring, planes are visually boring relative to any other field of current transport.

 

The design, and especially graphics, of any motocross bike, bicycle, boat, snowmobile, etc, these days comes with a visual punch. You have to look at Stunt Planes to start getting anything exciting and they are very moderate in comparison. Even most RC planes are graphically 'Xtreme'.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I suspect the trick is to do something that gets the fathers in, too. Something like offering a scholarship to fifteen year olds, to solo standard. The fathers come along to satisfy themselves that it's a properly-conducted exercise, and of course you take them up to demonstrate . . .

 

 

[Geoff13]

I have a dream. I know it is an old cliche but if ever I get to the standard of being able to teach, I would like to help young people achieve the dream that has taken me 50 years. Throughout my transport career I have always helped young people to get a start, normally at a fairly large cost to myself. I have always from the time I employed my first driver, had someone on the payroll who through lack of experience has not been able to get a start anywhere else. The cost to me through insurance, damages and sheer frustration has been at times beyond belief, but once a long time ago a true gentleman in the transport industry gave me a start when no-one else would. I told old Sparra back then that I would repay his faith in me and I will continue to repay that debt as long as I draw breath. I meant it then and I mean it now if one day I can help a kid with a dream feel the pleasure that I feel when I go wheels up on my own on a beautiful day then I will do it. I haven't worked out how yet but I will and when I do I shall do it. I know I am a long way from being able to do that yet, but 20 years ago I was a long way from being able to give a driver a start and now I have forgotten how many I have helped. The pleasure I get when I see someone drive out my gate in his own rig is beyond explanation to someone who doesn't understand.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I've just been looking at another forum and there's the usual talk of GA dying due to cost ,so I had a look at the stats on wages very briefly to see the difference between today and 1969( why that year, I happened to see some old receipts from RVAC ),2014 average wage approx $1100 gross approx rental of a 172/pa28 $200-220ph

1969 average wage approx $75 gross ,approx rental of a 172/pa28 $29ph

 

To rent an aircraft in 69 would be 38% of a weekly wage whereas it comes in at 20% of today's wage! now the 1969 figure is from memory ( I looked through an old logbook a few years ago and found a receipt in the back so I may have the figures wrong) but even if it's off by a lot it still works out cheaper as a stand alone figure to the past costs. So, is flying dearer? Is all the other parts of our life dearer leaving less for flying pursuits? Or is there other factors?

 

One thing that I believe is killing aviation is the mundaneness of it in the eyes of the general public, when you can jump on a plane as if a bus and flit up to Sydney or Brisbane for $100 ( or less!!!) flying has become a lot less exciting in the public perception, is that a reason, it's just not as exciting as it once was?

 

Something I've watched at my field is one of the guys there is always giving rides to people,,,always ! If you stand still long enough he'll offer to take you for a lap of the valley, is that's what's missing, this guy has 23000 hours as an ATPL and yet his enthusiasm is amazing, do we need to become more willing to take people up( legal ramifications are also a concern) ?

 

Opinions???

Hiya Metalbloke. . . . .

 

I learned to fly in the UK when I was seven years old ( yes you heard that right. . .) my neighbour had a half share in a DH82A tiger Moth and he noticed all my airfix models dangling from the ceiling in our front and back rooms, when he was trying to seduce my Mother whilst Dad was away, ( but that's another story,. . . .and I didn't find out about that bit until many years later ! ! ) the chap. let's call him Roy, (because that was his name. . . ) flew Hurricanes in WW2, though he said he never encountered a German aircraft. . . . . and an assortment of other types which I can't remember, then he volunteered to fly Dakotas in the Berlin airlift at the end of WW2 when the Soviets were blockading Berlin. He teamed up with "Uncle Stu" I never knew his full name, . . . who was a pilot flying Ansons, Boulton & Paul Defiants and later Mitchell Bombers on anti-submarine duties in the same war. . . . they bought the Tiger from Don Everall Aviation Service at Pendeford aerodrome near Wolverhampton, Staffordshire ( central England ) Everalls operated an Irish Mail service from Pendeford using the DeHaviland Dragon Rapide, a twin engined Tiger Moth lookalike. . . . . with a pair of Gypsy Major 145 HP upside down four cylinder engines. The Moths were used as a training aid for prospective pilots on the Rapide aparently . . . . ( Roy often said that flying that was a bit like flying two Tigers in loose formation. . . .but I didn't understand the insult at the time. . . . I got offered a passenger ride in one of those from Pt. Cook near Geelong, Melboune in the 70s but was running late on a promise from the missus, so I declined,. . . .the aircraft, named "Puff the Magic Dragon" subsequently crashed the same afternoon, killing all on board, I found out later. . . .It obviously wasn't my time. . . . but I digress. . . . . The Rapide has a single cockpit and dual instruction is obviously not possible, so Don Everalls used ex- wartime pilots as they assumed (! ) that if you could fly a bomber,. . . you could fly anything ( ! ) The two guys I refer to took literally Dozens of passengers up in the Tiger Moth,. . .whom otherwise would never have ever had a chance to fly, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of their charges became pilots in later life. Don't get me wrong here, I don't think that either of them were little boy kiddie fiddlers, since I had no experiences like that with iether of them, . . . . remember that Roy was after my Mum,. . . .and when I flew anywhere with Uncle Stu. . . .He always had an "Auntie" who he buggered of with for several hours and left me at some airfield or other to wander around on my own. . . . . ! I couldn't understand how someone could have so many Aunties. . . . . . but at 7 years old. . . . . anyway, I'm sure these guys had their hearts in the right place, as they wanted to impart their knowledge and skills to young people and they did, . . . . I have made it my business to carry on that philosophy and have introduce over thirty people to flying, some of whom are still members of my local club, . . . one of whom is now a captain with a major UK airline. And YES I'm bloody proud of that !!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Sorry Metal. . . . . you were going on about wages and G A . I lost the plot due to Australian wine products. . . . . IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT . . .!!!!

 

Anyway, Most of our club members will always take a pleb for a flight,. . . .even if most of them ( which is usual lately. . .) don't even offer you a tenner towards the gas. . . . . we even have a flight instructor named Mike Bailey,. . . who takes folks for a fright in his flexwing for FREE. . . . . . . for a few circuits to see if they are going to like the idea. . . . . Tht is Definitely aa First in UK flight Training ! ! ! !

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Once, girls became interested in boys who were flying. And also there were some attractive girls who were learning to fly. Without that mix, aero clubs are not the same.

A couple of years ago, I did a talk at the local high school near to where I live and where both my Daughters attended, althought they are now aged 29 and 31 and a bit. . . . . . The talk was entitled "Why don't young people want to fly anymore ?" . . . .I did a video / slide show and powerpoint presentation to back up the talk and was amazed at the response. HOWEVER. . . . when offering free trial flights, prearranged with club members who had the requisite insurances and were willing to participate, we only had a ten percent take up on the offer . . . ? I thought that the talk was well recieved, but was rather disappointed in the result. The interesting thing was though, that the majority of the ten percent take up were females.

 

In this country, as, I'm sure with yours too, and probably other westernised states, the veritably enormous cost of training to a commercial level ( unless you get sponsorship from a major airline ) is fairly well prohibitive as far as most people think,. . . . unless your Mum and Dad are well heeled then there isn't much hope of getting into commercial flying unless you win the lottery. This is obviously why the kids opt for something a little less expensive as a career, again, unless they get exemplary university grades.

 

I guess we will just have to keep on taking up the kids, so that they can tell their grandchildren how nice it was to see the roof of their house straight down on a sunny Sunday afternoon. . . . . . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

. Or the little people running around like ants. I'm not surprised the girls took up the offer more than the younger males. They seem less backward in coming forward for things like that than they used to. However they are still underrepresented in motorsports and flying. I do believe that the RAAus should encourage more gals to fly. Making them more included in the airside activities might help, rather than just peeling onions and washing dishes. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

. Or the little people running around like ants. I'm not surprised the girls took up the offer more than the younger males. They seem less backward in coming forward for things like that than they used to. However they are still underrepresented in motorsports and flying. I do believe that the RAAus should encourage more gals to fly. Making them more included in the airside activities might help, rather than just peeling onions and washing dishes. Nev

Well. . . . . . . . . . . it's funny you should mention that Nev,. . . . . . .. our cafe lady resigned seven months ago, due to poor attendance at the airfield cafe, and the fact that she had to attend from her home in South Birmingham, some 30 miles distand from the airfield, even though she had run the cafe for over four years ( The Flying Pan Cafe ) . . . Fortunately, . . .one of our members noticed a really gorgeous lady in her early thirties, ( looks like 21 . . . ) running a roadside butty van in a nearby roadside layby.

 

He coaxed her into bringing her dreiveable van jobby to Otherton Airfield, about four months ago and she has been a regular visitor on Sundays ever since. So, you ask . . .what's the problem ? ? ? ? the bloody problem is, when I go to the airfield I want to chill out, . . . operate the radio a bit,. . . go for a couple of flights etc. . . etc. . . .etc. . . but now, all the blokes are taking Kerry ( that's her name ) up in their aircraft, and that leaves ME. . . .working with her granny Joyce, making all the burgers and sarnies. . . . . .!! Mind you,. . . .I do make a really good Full English breakfast, with black pudding, mushrooms, tomatoes, bacon, pork sausage, hash browns, eggs, fried bread and thick buttered toast with a mug of coffee or tea, but she doesn't pay me me at all when she comes back from another aerobatic session with one of the guys from the red arrows who lives just up the road from us and has an RV7. . . . . . Life just isn't fair at all. . . . .

 

 

[Marty_d]

Hey all,

 

Further to my comment earlier about Shuttleworth Old Warden, please find a link below to some of my photos. Some lovely classic aircraft there, including 2 of those "two Tigers in loose formation" (Rapides) that Phil was talking about while in his cups.

 

There were also some large scale models there, including a 60% model of the English Electric Wren (there's a photo of it with the full size one in the background). They tried to organise a flyby of both the model and the full size at the same time, but the full size one could only get a few feet off the runway.

 

This Race Day was fairly special; 80 years ago this month, the MacRobertson England to Australia air race started, taking off from RAF Mildenhall and finishing at the Flemington Racecourse in Melbourne. Only 9 aircraft finished the race in the time period allowed. Of these, there were 7 represented at this year's Race Day, either the restored originals (like the Comet "Grosvenor House", which finished first) or replicas. At one point in the afternoon these 7 aircraft lined up on the taxiway and took off in the same order that they had departed 80 years ago!

 

As well as planes, there were plenty of vintage cars/bikes/trucks, most of them over 100 years old. It was a fantastic day out for my 6 year old son and I.

 

Here's the link... enjoy... just remember to wipe the drool from your chin before your wife notices and wonders what you're looking at!

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/116493846695191693489/ShuttleworthOldWardenRaceDay5thOctober2014?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKW3oYHk0vqihQE&feat=directlink

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I think they used a bungee to launch the Wren last time I was there. I agree it is a wonderful show whichever day you go. I would not miss it if I am in the area.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Air shows and airport open days, should be more of them. I had a blast at Kidsventure at Oshkosh. Only had to rebuild my control line model twice. But seriously it was great to see dad and son and even a few mums and sons/ daughters getting involved for quality time. Shame we can't get the powers that leash to get some glider courses going like the ones in Lithuania.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Air shows and airport open days, should be more of them. I had a blast at Kidsventure at Oshkosh. Only had to rebuild my control line model twice. But seriously it was great to see dad and son and even a few mums and sons/ daughters getting involved for quality time. Shame we can't get the powers that leash to get some glider courses going like the ones in Lithuania.

What do they do in Lithuania? Are the glider courses in the school curriculum or something?

 

 

[facthunter]

Silly socialist ideas. Informing people about flying. They will be wanting to immunise people next, or have an old age pension you could exist on. Nev

 

 

[Neil_S]

Here's the link... enjoy... just remember to wipe the drool from your chin before your wife notices and wonders what you're looking at!

https://picasaweb.google.com/116493846695191693489/ShuttleworthOldWardenRaceDay5thOctober2014?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKW3oYHk0vqihQE&feat=directlink

Excellent pix, Marty. Thanks for sharing.

 

Cheers,

 

Neil