Best battery for Jabiru 2.2. Need advice

[Herm]

Having the usual starting troubles with my Jab. Purchased an ave battery for it and it is clear it is not good enough. I have been looking at these lipo style bats that can be charged using the existing charge system. Can even be used in cars. http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/108/bid/15/Products/SSBPowerSportLithium.aspx

 

These batts seem to be more stable than normal lipo's... I am guessing they are along the lines of LiFe which I have used in other applications with great results and high AMPS .

 

Not sure if others have tried these or what others have used to get better starting results in their Jabs. My current batt is an AusLec... And I find if the aircraft does not start in the first few cranks I will need to jump start it. Once it has been started it fine. Guess not much more could be expected from a low price batt.

 

Looking for information from those with knowledge in this area rather than opinions. I do understand about Lipo's, but not seen them used in this application.

 

 

[ruffasguts]

Having the usual starting troubles with my Jab. Purchased an ave battery for it and it is clear it is not good enough. I have been looking at these lipo style bats that can be charged using the existing charge system. Can even be used in cars. http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/108/bid/15/Products/SSBPowerSportLithium.aspxThese batts seem to be more stable than normal lipo's... I am guessing they are along the lines of LiFe which I have used in other applications with great results and high AMPS .

 

Not sure if others have tried these or what others have used to get better starting results in their Jabs. My current batt is an AusLec... And I find if the aircraft does not start in the first few cranks I will need to jump start it. Once it has been started it fine. Guess not much more could be expected from a low price batt.

 

Looking for information from those with knowledge in this area rather than opinions. I do understand about Lipo's, but not seen them used in this application.

DO NOT use lipo with the jabiru charging system call in and see me at gawler and i will explain

 

Mick W

 

 

[Herm]

Thanks Mick

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I'm curious to know a little more about this "usual troubles starting my Jab." I've been starting one in an engine test cell without difficulty, using a very ordinary automotive 50 AH battery at the end of about twelve feet of lead on both the positive and the negative side. However, the Jab. starter draws sufficient current to blow a 100 amp fuse (as I discovered by blowing one), so the cables need to be quite large to avoid excessive voltage drop; I'm using heavy welding cables. If you refer to Chapter 11 of FAA Advisory Circular 43.13-1, you can find the resistance of typical aircraft cables. With an average current of 100 amps, a circuit resistance of 0.01 ohm will cost you one volt at the starter, so going up a size on the cables is likely to make a considerable difference. So is a poor connection between the cable inner and the end lugs.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I'm curious to know a little more about this "usual troubles starting my Jab." I've been starting one in an engine test cell without difficulty,

It's not a secret, Google is your friend.

 

Even I'm aware of the starting issues, wasted a couple of hours one day trying to start a 3300 with a less than fresh battery that was good enough for most engines but too slow for a Jab to excite the ignition, needs to tick over strongly.

 

http://ultralightaircraftaustralia.com/videos/solve-jabiru-hard-starting-issues/

 

 

[jetjr]

Battey has to be good and cable and connections srong due to fast rotation speed needed to start, few volts down no go

 

I ran new earth link from one end to other of starter and problem solved.

 

Im looking onto Earth x batteries currently, LiFe with inbuilt charge controller. Good reports in Jabiru engined aircraft in US

 

DO NOT look at normal Li ion types as they arent very stable and thats mostly whats out there.

 

There is some issues with Jabiru charging but not what many think. The charge current can be bery high, regulated to some extent by the batteies capability and poor wiring connections. Apparantly fitting an Life which will accept much higher can overload connectors on regulation circuits

 

Ideally the big weight savings could be used to fit Camit or Rotec altnator upgrade. Much Lighter wallet will help aircraft fly faster too.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Herm

 

Did you have problems with the Odyssey (spelling?)

 

Factory uses Odyssey. I got 6 years /600hrs problem free out of my first one. Changed it because of age, was still working fine but didn't want to risk a possible low battery out in the bush.

 

Another 11 Jabs in my immediate area are also still using the Odyssey - initial purchase a bit on the pricy side (around ($250 although advertised cheaper in Adelaide) but after 6 plus years works out cheaper then what it costs me to keep a reliable lead acid in my car.

 

I am a believer in 'if it's not broken don't try to fix it'

 

The SBs on the starter earth lead and larger choke jet fixed "cold" weather starting for me.

 

P.S. There is also an approved cold start kit available replacing one mag with an electronic module (from the factory) if for some reason the above mentioned SBs don't address your issues.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Herm, if you haven't already done so, do yourself a favour (as Molly used to say) and fit Jabiru's Cold Start Kit. Not pricey, takes an hour or so to install, and allows the engine to fire up at slow revs.

 

For years I just got by with a Deca 120 CCA absorbed glass matt lead-acid battery, which weighs 3 kg.

 

After replacing it with the 180 CCA version (4kg) I have no problems.

 

 

[Keith Page]

I am wondering if anone has used those Fullrivers which one can purchases from Batteries Direct in Sydney?

 

Looks like they are a new kid on the block and wondering if anyone has tried them.

 

The guff I read about the Fullrivers:- Better than the Odyssey by way of less weight better cranking amps. We will see..

 

Batteries Direct is a good place to by Odysseys.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

It's not a secret, Google is your friend.Even I'm aware of the starting issues, wasted a couple of hours one day trying to start a 3300 with a less than fresh battery that was good enough for most engines but too slow for a Jab to excite the ignition, needs to tick over strongly.

 

http://ultralightaircraftaustralia.com/videos/solve-jabiru-hard-starting-issues/

Unless that modification has been verified to cause no adverse effect on the crankshaft torsional stress - which involves strain-gauging the nose of the crankshaft - I'd be very wary of it. Especially on a 3300. That's a mod that can have - I don't say it does, but it can - have very dangerous side effects. One of the fatal RV crashes I looked at was caused by a blade failure of a Hartzell propeller, only about 275 hours from new, due to vibrational stresses induced by a non-certificated replacement of one of the magnetos by an electronic system that gave more ignition advance than the engine had been cleared for. The vendors of such a system are very likely at risk of culpable negligence unless they have done the necessary testing on the engine to clear this point.

 

 

[Herm]

HermDid you have problems with the Odyssey (spelling?)

Factory uses Odyssey. I got 6 years /600hrs problem free out of my first one. Changed it because of age, was still working fine but didn't want to risk a possible low battery out in the bush.

 

Another 11 Jabs in my immediate area are also still using the Odyssey - initial purchase a bit on the pricy side (around ($250 although advertised cheaper in Adelaide) but after 6 plus years works out cheaper then what it costs me to keep a reliable lead acid in my car.

 

I am a believer in 'if it's not broken don't try to fix it'

 

The SBs on the starter earth lead and larger choke jet fixed "cold" weather starting for me.

 

P.S. There is also an approved cold start kit available replacing one mag with an electronic module (from the factory) if for some reason the above mentioned SBs don't address your issues.

Thanks Frank. I will look that batt up today. I will also look at the cold start kit. Mick who replied to my post also has had lots of experience in this area and has offered to assist. I will go and have a chat with him also to get his ideas. I have always been aware of this problem with the 2.2 Jab and also my Brother In Laws Morgan. He has had some smaller issues on very cold mornings.... Just saw that site that I have posted a link to on my original post, about these so called super dooper special LiPo style batts that are supposed to be able to charge from normal charging systems.. Have a look at the link... Would be good if they did work with the Jab charging system as they are High Current and very light weight... Its seems that this may not be the case for using them in the Jab, So the other options might be the way I need to go... The tried and tested.

 

Thanks Guys

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Marty

 

I would strongly advise to stay with AGM battery for now.....of all the things I dread happening in the air the only thing worse than a cabin full of smoke is fire itself IMHO

 

I've heard good things re the J cold start kit.....but I've been around long enough to remember that hydraulic lifters were the greatest things since sliced bread in a J engine....... I'm holding off on them for the moment....at this time of year you shouldn't be having issues with stock engines.... July August maybe sep yes it can be an issue

 

Andy

 

 

[kgwilson]

I have a Motobatt MBTX20OU AGM battery which is has a 21Ah capacity & 310 CCA. Plenty of grunt to start a Jab 3.3 but does weigh 6.5 kgs. Good battery though & currently on sale from batteries direct for $132.00. The model down MBTX16U still has 19Ah & 250 CCA, weighs 5.6 kgs & is $10.00 cheaper. Maybe the MBTX12U would suit as it still is rated at 14Ah & 200 CCA & is only $99.00 & 4.4 kgs.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Unless that modification has been verified to cause no adverse effect on the crankshaft torsional stress -.

Thank you for your input Dafydd.

 

In the car world we would laugh at your pedantic stance as the worst case scenario is pretty mild, but a different consideration is required sometimes in a tin can without ground under your feet.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Thank you for your input Dafydd.In the car world we would laugh at your pedantic stance as the worst case scenario is pretty mild, but a different consideration is required sometimes in a tin can without ground under your feet.

If you make a mod. like that to a certificated engine in a certificated aircraft, without going through a formal approval process, it's a criminal offence in GA (CASR 21.183 and S20AA.3 of the Civil Aviation Act) carrying a 2 - year gaol sentence. So not exactly a laughing matter. I don't know what the situation is for an RAA registered aircraft, but I suspect S 20AA would still apply.

The engine has to have its crankshaft torsional oscillatory stress investigated during the type certification process; so if you change something that would make the original test invalid, the approval process requires a re-run of the test. Altering the ignition advance will affect the crankshaft torsional oscillatory stress.

 

 

[Herm]

If you make a mod. like that to a certificated engine in a certificated aircraft, without going through a formal approval process, it's a criminal offence in GA (CASR 21.183 and S20AA.3 of the Civil Aviation Act) carrying a 2 - year gaol sentence. So not exactly a laughing matter. I don't know what the situation is for an RAA registered aircraft, but I suspect S 20AA would still apply. The engine has to have its crankshaft torsional oscillatory stress investigated during the type certification process; so if you change something that would make the original test invalid, the approval process requires a re-run of the test. Altering the ignition advance will affect the crankshaft torsional oscillatory stress.

I do thank all those that offered advice in my problem. I was wanting some simple advice from those that had had these problems. This is why I don't post very often... they always end up in some sort of mess.

 

I also did post in my original post the following: Looking for information from those with knowledge in this area rather than opinions.! Seems I may have got more than I asked for LOL.

 

Just to add to this matter of adding a cold start kit. Did you know Dafydd that this kit is sold by the Jabiru Factory.. The people that make the aircraft... I will contact them about this option..

 

Thanks again

 

Over And Out

 

 

[Guernsey]

Hi there Herm,

 

Not over and out please, just over for now. You have to tell us what you finally did, and did it work for you.

 

Alan.

 

 

[01rmb]

I do thank all those that offered advice in my problem. I was wanting some simple advice from those that had had these problems. This is why I don't post very often... they always end up in some sort of mess.I also did post in my original post the following: Looking for information from those with knowledge in this area rather than opinions.! Seems I may have got more than I asked for LOL.

 

Just to add to this matter of adding a cold start kit. Did you know Dafydd that this kit is sold by the Jabiru Factory.. The people that make the aircraft... I will contact them about this option..

 

Thanks again

 

Over And Out

The kit is sold by Jabiru. If I recall correctly it is about $200. It is a simple install to replace one of the existing mags (keep for a spare).

 

The only problem I have had with cold starts is when the choke cable was loose and not adding choke when needed.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

The kit is sold by Jabiru. If I recall correctly it is about $200. It is a simple install to replace one of the existing mags (keep for a spare).The only problem I have had with cold starts is when the choke cable was loose and not adding choke when needed.

Well, ask Jabiru for a release note for it, stating that it's suitable for your engine. They shouldn't have any difficulty with that.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Just in case, Herm: has your "choke" been drilled out to the larger size? A couple of years back that modification was solving the winter start woes of quite a few Jab engines.

 

 

[jetjr]

If ive understood the cold start kit is an electronic COIL just allows spark to be generated at lower rpm

 

Other coil and both mag stays

 

Jabiru should be able to provide docs if they are needed

 

Re batteries, Fullriver are good quality chinese AGM batteries..... Not much special though other than pricing.

 

Ive used some large ones and performance was OK, one of the cases cracked but it ws in off road trailer so pretty tough

 

Reason to look at LiFe is the significant weight reduction and higher performance. Odessy are fine and ive had no issues but cost is horrible for a pretty std AGM albiet a good quality one.

 

Mine is a 5 yrs old and starting to loose charge between flights, starting is a little harder, went through a year or so of that stuff before i replaced it last time.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hi jetjr,

 

As I believe -- the cold start kit you are 100% correct. I think part of it has a current feed. (Does not change the spark timing.)

 

Thank you for the Fullriver information, they got me interested. I was looking for some one who has tried them.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Hi jetjr,As I believe -- the cold start kit you are 100% correct. I think part of it has a current feed. (Does not change the spark timing.)

 

Thank you for the Fullriver information, they got me interested. I was looking for some one who has tried them.

 

Regards

 

KP.

The cold start kit retards its spark by quite a few degrees- perhaps because it fires at low revs, not the c.275rpm of the standard fixed-timing coils.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I've been using a Hobbyking LiFePo4 battery ( 8400mah at 13.2 volts) for a couple of years now and it starts the motor better than the Odyssey it replaced and for a cost of less than $100. And with a weight saving of 5kg over the Odyssey, which otherwise worked fine.( and it recovered from a master left on episode)

 

A few things to beware of:

 

(1) some batteries are rated " lead acid equivalent" and they don't have the same amp-hours at all. I reckon they are a con.

 

(2) Lithium batteries come in 3 types. Only the LiFePO4 seem to be safe.

 

(3) You will ruin the battery if you leave it with the master left on.

 

(4) you need to balance charge it a few times a year, I think.

 

(5) I only use mine for starting.As soon as the voltage is up again, well before take-off, the battery is isolated and a few big capacitors serve as the "battery" as far as the radio and instruments and alternator are concerned. So while in flight, the battery is not connected to any charger or any load. I am doing this mainly because I think overcharging, at least with the Jabiru system, may shorten the battery life.

 

(6) My engine has always started easily and if yours doesn't then look into why not. One Jabiru I know was transformed to an easy-starter when the cable was moved to the brushes-end of the starter-motor.

 

 

[Russ]

Bruce.....is that lifepo4 the 20 amp one, ......had a bit of a google, it looks like it's physically the same size as my oddysee.