Help with paint schemes

[deadstick]

Hi all, I am currently trying to find a supplier of off the shelf aircraft decals etc. my J160 is all white and I would like to give it a nice scheme. Can anyone recommend a sign writer etc that's familiar with aircraft?

 

 

[Camel]

The Jabiru website under Pinstripes and Motifs has a very good selection. I'm on the Mid north Coast NSW and had a local sign writer do my stripes which I found on another aircraft and he copied, printed and stuck on my Jab, did a great job.

 

 

[aj_richo]

Brian Degenhardt is a legend signwriter, Rans and Vans builder - he did the vinyl work for my Sonex. http://sonexaus.wikispaces.com/file/view/Richo_will_it_fly.JPG

 

Although he is based in Adelaide, I don't see why he couldn't knock you up a unique scheme.

 

http://www.daytonasigns.com.au/aviation.php

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Worth pointing out that the decals that jab have are generally made for cars and available from online usa businesses for a fraction, even when including freight, of the J costs. Google car decals use the image Google option and pretty quickly you'll identify one of dozens who will ship.....

 

Andy

 

 

[SDQDI]

There are some awesome graphics mobs that wrap cars and boats, they look pretty awesome. Ole has a local over at Taree that does his work, if you came up with a design that you wanted it might be worth giving him a ring for a price:thumb up:.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

The Jab is white for a reason. Ever hear the term "glass transition temperature" for an epoxy resin laminate? I suggest you look it up, before you add much in the way of a colour scheme. The Jab is made using LC3600 resin. The structural testing was conducted at or slightly above 54 C, because that's the temperature considered necessary for a white-painted surface in full sunlight on a nominal 37 degree C day at sea level.

 

AMC VLA 613 ©

 

Material Strength Properties and Design Values (Acceptable Means of Compliance)

 

Test Temperature –

 

a. For white painted surface and vertical sunlight: 54°C. If the test cannot be performed at this

 

temperature an additional factor of 1·25 should be used.

 

b. For other coloured surfaces the curve below may be used to determine the test temperature.

 

Curve based on: NASA Conference Publication 2036

 

NASA Contractor Report 3290

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Chad...Glen McKnight did the sign work on my trailer. He does the car and boat wraps here. McKnight Signs.

 

Scotty

 

 

[Marty_d]

The Jab is white for a reason. Ever hear the term "glass transition temperature" for an epoxy resin laminate? I suggest you look it up, before you add much in the way of a colour scheme. The Jab is made using LC3600 resin. The structural testing was conducted at or slightly above 54 C, because that's the temperature considered necessary for a white-painted surface in full sunlight on a nominal 37 degree C day at sea level.AMC VLA 613 ©

 

Material Strength Properties and Design Values (Acceptable Means of Compliance)

 

Test Temperature –

 

a. For white painted surface and vertical sunlight: 54°C. If the test cannot be performed at this

 

temperature an additional factor of 1·25 should be used.

 

b. For other coloured surfaces the curve below may be used to determine the test temperature.

 

Curve based on: NASA Conference Publication 2036

 

NASA Contractor Report 3290

Interesting point - what about dark colour schemes applied to aluminium? Would there be any difference (stretching, wrinkling etc) depending on colour? I know Zenith painted a few of their demonstrator models dark blue.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Brian Degenhardt is a legend signwriter, Rans and Vans builder - he did the vinyl work for my Sonex. http://sonexaus.wikispaces.com/file/view/Richo_will_it_fly.JPGAlthough he is based in Adelaide, I don't see why he couldn't knock you up a unique scheme.

 

http://www.daytonasigns.com.au/aviation.php

Nice plane, aj!

 

 

[deadstick]

The Jab is white for a reason. Ever hear the term "glass transition temperature" for an epoxy resin laminate? I suggest you look it up, before you add much in the way of a colour scheme. The Jab is made using LC3600 resin. The structural testing was conducted at or slightly above 54 C, because that's the temperature considered necessary for a white-painted surface in full sunlight on a nominal 37 degree C day at sea level.AMC VLA 613 ©

 

Material Strength Properties and Design Values (Acceptable Means of Compliance)

 

Test Temperature –

 

a. For white painted surface and vertical sunlight: 54°C. If the test cannot be performed at this

 

temperature an additional factor of 1·25 should be used.

 

b. For other coloured surfaces the curve below may be used to determine the test temperature.

 

Curve based on: NASA Conference Publication 2036

 

NASA Contractor Report 3290

Fully aware of this thanks dafydd, you can see the weave coming to the top on some jabs that have been painted, by paint scheme I assumed it would be understood as the stick on graphic schemes. Interestingly the Jabirus being sold in America and South Africa have near full paint schemes not stick on's. I was thinking of covering the belly, so you think there would be much reflected heat from the ground?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I believe I read somewhere that the impact of the ambient temp was more an issue when the resin was new and as it aged the risk reduced......I cant remember if or what science was presented to support that point....

 

Andy

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Interesting point - what about dark colour schemes applied to aluminium? Would there be any difference (stretching, wrinkling etc) depending on colour? I know Zenith painted a few of their demonstrator models dark blue.

No; you can paint aluminium any colour you like.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Fully aware of this thanks dafydd, you can see the weave coming to the top on some jabs that have been painted, by paint scheme I assumed it would be understood as the stick on graphic schemes. Interestingly the Jabirus being sold in America and South Africa have near full paint schemes not stick on's. I was thinking of covering the belly, so you think there would be much reflected heat from the ground?

The Tg (glass transition temperature) issue is the temperature the thing gets to, standing in the sun. I doubt it matters whether the colour is painted on or stuck on. I can only suggest putting some temperature sensors on the top & the underside, parking the aircraft in the full sun, and recording the temperatures over a reasonable range of sun angles. Here's the part of AMC VLA 613 c that I couldn't attach last night:

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I believe I read somewhere that the impact of the ambient temp was more an issue when the resin was new and as it aged the risk reduced......I cant remember if or what science was presented to support that point....Andy

The Tg can be increased by curing the resin at an elevated temperature, depending on the resin. The scope for this is pretty limited for LC 3600. Jabirus - at least the models I'm familiar with - are not cured at elevated temperature, because doing so also makes the resin more brittle; they do cure progressively by natural ageing, so the Tg will increase as the aircraft matures - but not indefinitely, and the process is not quantifiable. Alan Kerr was of the view (based on numerous tests) that this practice considerably increases the fatigue resistance of the layup, and also its impact resistance; some of Jabiru's crashworthiness is likely due to this. I am not aware of any research done by the African or American vendors to justify darker colours, tho presumably they have some experience by now.

The weave becoming visible is a consequence of long-term resin shrinkage and is a characteristic of GRP in general; it is usually disguised by including a layer of surface tissue on the outer surface of the layup, but that adds considerable weight, so it's a luxury small aircraft cannot usually afford.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

With regard to heat absorbancy, does the reflectabilty of the finished surface come into play. For instance, a black paint finish with a very high gloss, mirror like.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Not as far as I am aware - and the design standard makes no allowance for that.

 

 

[Ultralights]

funny how heat absorbency doesn't seam to effect military aircraft, or any other civillian aircraft for that matter, even in desert environments of the Middle east.. and yes, im referring to composite structures.. and no, in my 25 yrs in aircraft composites, have i ever seen 1 incidence of delamination or damage due to black, or matt black painted composite aircraft or parts sitting in the sun..

 

 

[Ultralights]

Hi all, I am currently trying to find a supplier of off the shelf aircraft decals etc. my J160 is all white and I would like to give it a nice scheme. Can anyone recommend a sign writer etc that's familiar with aircraft?

How about a nice striking vinyl wrap? a company in the USA called aircraft wraps have been doing it for ages, no reason why you cant design and apply your own..

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

funny how heat absorbency doesn't seam to effect military aircraft, or any other civillian aircraft for that matter, even in desert environments of the Middle east.. and yes, im referring to composite structures.. and no, in my 25 yrs in aircraft composites, have i ever seen 1 incidence of delamination or damage due to black, or matt black painted composite aircraft or parts sitting in the sun..

Nothing funny about it at all - that's because the composites in those aircraft are generally made with pre-preg, and cured in an autoclave - whereas Jabiru use hand layup, ambient temperature cure. Pre-preg stuff comes out like bone china - and it's about as brittle as that, too. Ideal for short-life aircraft where performance is more important that anything else.

 

 

[Ultralights]

so, what about the room temp cured hand wet layups on those pre preg parts? like, say, rotor blades? painted flat black, subjected to huge centrical forces, that are still flying since being repaired long before Jabiru first hatched.. and are fine after siting in the sun at temps well over 50deg C in some cases..

 

and where are the reports? or faults caused by black painted hand layed up, room temp cured epoxy layups? i have never seen 1, but if the evidence is presented, i will re asses my position.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

You are entitled to your opinion. I'm simply pointing out the requirements of the design standard to which the J 160 was certificated. If somebody wants to re-paint one of those, that's a modification and it requires approval - and approval requires compliance with the design standard. Go argue the toss with Darren Barnfield.