Entry into CTA

[Guest ozzie]

For those always posting about CTA entry and going on about uncooperative ATC controllers watch this.

 

In the USA it seems an aircraft is an aircraft no matter how big. If there is space they will fit you in. Mind you just how much did this landing cost? $1000.00 hamburger and coffee?

 

Really wish they would not put crappy music on these vids really spoils them.

 

 

 

[Downunder]

Without music

 

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Wow! That was amazing. I was at Cairns one day in the tower and one of the controllers asked me what I Fly and when I told him he said he'd be pleased to have me land at Cairns International! Just then he cleared a single engine Cessna to land with a big fat airbus not far behind. The Cessna got in and turned of the runway - all very uneventful. Still might be a while before I'd chance that with only a Pilot Cert!

 

 

[coljones]

If only RAA pilots and owners had an advocacy organisation looking out for their rights and privileges.

 

 

[rgmwa]

I was about to go on a pre PPL solo student nav in a 172, when my instructor said, "request a Perth overshoot on the flight plan" which is an approach to the active runway at Perth airport, descend to not below 500 feet and then exit the area as directed by ATC. He said "look, you probably won't get it because they seldom allow it anymore these days because they don't like small planes interfering with the RPT, but put in a request anyway".

 

So I took off on the nav and after flying for a couple of hours was on my way back to Jandakot, when I called up Perth ATC and nervously requested the overshoot. To my horror they told me to orbit until they could fit me in. So I circled, all the time becoming more tense, until they called back with a series of instructions that I promptly forgot and they had to impatiently repeat. I anxiously flew the assigned heading to join base before turning final and coming in low to line up on this enormous runway with a big jet holding for departure until I was safely past. To an airline pilot it would have been totally unremarkable, but to a student flying alone it was downright scary. Glad I did it though.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[frank marriott]

Personally I don't see a problem with accessing CTA in Australia.

 

Yes you need the relevant licence and qualifying aircraft but that is the LAW, not the controllers. (This is a completely different argument)

 

Although not "required" it is preferred (at least locally) that you submit a flight plan - saves time and chatter when things get a bit busy. Today, with all the various portable electronic devices, it takes about a minute to submit a flight plan and everyone is happy.

 

A tip is to be procedurally correct in radio communication - you often hear someone bumbling through their communication including unwanted information & missing required info, at best embarrassing - certainly time consuming.

 

The main deterrent as I see it, is the cost and availability of parking and movement fees. These fees, with the privatisation of airports, are the biggest limiting factor for small capacity aircraft.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Atc don't care what aircraft your in, if they can fit you in they will. The issue is generally the space you need for the smaller guys is a lot bigger then for the jets.

 

The airport companies on the other hand seem to be trying to encourage light aircraft operators to vacate the area. You could face up to $300 landing fees in cairns if you use the runway between 10am-2pm.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Personally I don't see a problem with accessing CTA in Australia.Yes you need the relevant licence and qualifying aircraft but that is the LAW, not the controllers. (This is a completely different argument)

Although not "required" it is preferred (at least locally) that you submit a flight plan - saves time and chatter when things get a bit busy. Today, with all the various portable electronic devices, it takes about a minute to submit a flight plan and everyone is happy.

Very much so, your less likely to receive a friendly service if you haven't even bothered to file a flight plan (which costs you nothing), it can be very time consuming to put aircraft details into the system and usually multiple transmissions. As with any flight, do your brief, know the airspace procedures and submit the flight plan :)

 

 

[facthunter]

On a user pays philosophy you will pay for every service you utilise, and that is not unreasonable. IF you get into (being cleared to) their CTA and stuff it up you might just get a rather large bill, and that is not unreasonable either. When you are there you are expected to know all the rules and fly competently. Like know radio fail procedures etc Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

On a user pays philosophy you will pay for every service you utilise, and that is not unreasonable. IF you get into (being cleared to) their CTA and stuff it up you might just get a rather large bill, and that is not unreasonable either. When you are there you are expected to know all the rules and fly competently. Like know radio fail procedures etc Nev

It probably wouldn't impress the airlines/pilots about light aviation much if you made an airbus or two "go around" either....

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

In the context of RAAus are we talking about desiring access to airports that are in class C airspace or only Airports in class D.......or is the class of airspace a distinction we don't need........I personally would be satisfied with class D that means I can get to the specialist maintenance folk I might want to use at a cost I can likely afford....Not sure that Class C really provides me that much more, other than aggravation and cost ......

 

Interested in your views its a timely discussion

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you go around it might be 30 minutes or much more, before you touchdown next. That can disrupt a schedule all around a network, as well as a fuel bill that would rock you. Flying a jet at low levels uses a LOT of fuel. Nev.

 

 

[robinsm]

If only RAA pilots and owners had an advocacy organisation looking out for their rights and privileges.

I thought it was called Raa-Aus?

 

 

[facthunter]

The best organisation to look after you rights and privileges is AOPA. It's the only one that doesn't have to suck up to the CASA to exist. This is in the big scheme of things.

 

Also .. the way the RAAus is structured you can input it and have your voice heard. You have reps you elect and a few other ways to influence things.

 

However, YOUR organisation has to perform some delegated functions of the AUTHORITY, so in some areas it must apply rules that are beyond it's control. If you are aggrieved by the way these are administered in respect of you and don't get satisfactory redress, you go to my first Para. Aopa should represent all flyers interests.. We have a lot in common with all aviators.

 

. I'm not paid for this advert, nor do I have any position in the organisation. I am a member.. You get a reduced subscription by belonging to RAAus.. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

In the context of RAAus are we talking about desiring access to airports that are in class C airspace or only Airports in class D.......or is the class of airspace a distinction we don't need........I personally would be satisfied with class D that means I can get to the specialist maintenance folk I might want to use at a cost I can likely afford....Not sure that Class C really provides me that much more, other than aggravation and cost ......Interested in your views its a timely discussion

 

Andy

airspace is either controlled or uncontrolled, Class D is very limited (i.e. only around the aerodrome), if you need to get over ranges or coastal routes, it's generally Class C you'll be in (i.e. with Brisbane Centre). I don't see why you'd need to say only class d, but i guess it's a start.

 

There would be no reason for a RA-AUS member to be flying their jabiru into sydney or melbourne, however places like Cairns or the Gold Coast makes sense and they are Class C.

 

Most of the charges are for the use of the airport (i.e. landing), transiting airspace I didn't think cost too much (VFR).

 

To answer your question Andy, i think it should be line with the RPL, i.e. an endorsement you gain after training with a qualified instructor (maybe with min hours in CTA or landings at a controlled aerodrome). But it should be a choice, those who don't want the access (and added requirements), shouldn't have any extra restrictions placed on them (i.e. medical, aircraft equipment)

 

 

[nathan_c]

Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this 'ATC are uncooperative and are being unfair by denying me a clearance' rubbish. I couldnt give two damns what type of aircraft you are in, if you dont get a clearance its because I can not safely give it to you using the seperation standards that are available to me. If I can seperate you inside my controlled airspace, than I WILL give you a clearance, regardless of whether you are a C172 or a B747. Also keep in mind that if you file a VFR flight plan as opposed to IFR (which is obviously not relevant in this situation), your plan does not get sent automatically to my screen, and if you call me I will need to call the flight data coordinators and get your plan sent to me, which means if you do this on the boundary it will cause a delay for you.

 

In the interests of disclosure, I do not operate Class C or D Airspace, only class A, E and G, however for my E airspace, and my fellow controllers that operate the Class C and etc, the rules are the same, and I know for a fact they operate as I have described above.

 

I know most in this thread have not been posting with this view, but the thread has obviously stemmed from people observing people with this attitude, and its just getting a bit annoying.

 

 

[kgwilson]

I have always had a very good relationship with ATC both here & in NZ. When training on an XC exercise my flight plan included Auckland International. The guys were great & everything went smoothly even though there was a B747 behind me, the minimum approach speed was 90 knots & the poor old C152 was flat out at 90 knots. Same when I was 45 miles out to sea & ran into an occluded front not forecast or known at the time & it was hosing down. They gave me every bit of help I needed even patching me in to commercial pilots flying way overhead to let me know what the weather below looked like. I could not be more supportive & in GA always flew in controlled airspace when I could as I knew I had another set of very professional eyes helping to keep me safe.

 

 

[coljones]

airspace is either controlled or uncontrolled, Class D is very limited (i.e. only around the aerodrome), if you need to get over ranges or coastal routes, it's generally Class C you'll be in (i.e. with Brisbane Centre). I don't see why you'd need to say only class d, but i guess it's a start.There would be no reason for a RA-AUS member to be flying their jabiru into sydney or melbourne, however places like Cairns or the Gold Coast makes sense and they are Class C.

 

Most of the charges are for the use of the airport (i.e. landing), transiting airspace I didn't think cost too much (VFR).

 

To answer your question Andy, i think it should be line with the RPL, i.e. an endorsement you gain after training with a qualified instructor (maybe with min hours in CTA or landings at a controlled aerodrome). But it should be a choice, those who don't want the access (and added requirements), shouldn't have any extra restrictions placed on them (i.e. medical, aircraft equipment)

Bankstown and Camden in Sydney are Class D as is Coffs Harbour. Having a minimum of Class D would open up a lot of opportunities for RAA Certificate holders.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Bankstown and Camden in Sydney are Class D as is Coffs Harbour. Having a minimum of Class D would open up a lot of opportunities for RAA Certificate holders.

Yes Bankstown and Camden are both Class D, to about 3-5nms from the aerodrome and up to about 1500-2500 feet, then it's Class C. Coffs is a little bigger but still has class C around and above it.

 

The only plus side with Class D is you don't need a transponder so more aircraft may qualify for it's access.

 

If your safe enough to fly in Class D then there should be no reason why you can't in Class C as well, something is always better then nothing but I think our aim should be in line with the RPL (i.e. controlled airspace).

 

 

[frank marriott]

If a controlled airspace endorsement was available on a pilot certificate I couldn't see the traing/qualifying would be much different to doing a RPL.

 

But then you would still have the aircraft certification and of course the medical requirements & and don't forget the $200 ASIC. So really pretty much what is available now.

 

 

[Camel]

For those wanting everything on a budget, you need to know that controlled airspace is not free and my belief is if you want to use it get a PPL or RPL. RAA does not give out aircraft info so you may find that if Airservices can't charge then they don't want RAA and demanding CTA may add costs to all RAA members. The current arrangement is fine although some class D access as stated before would make things safer.

 

An example of charges is minimum terminal navigation charge Coffs Harbour $14.70 per ton. When I had my C172 I paid a yearly fee which was significant and reviewed annually depending on the years usage. The link to charges and conditions is

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/services/charges-and-costing/customer-pricing-information/

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/ASAContractForAviationFacilitiesAndServicesJul2012.pdf.

 

Trying to make RAA pilot certificate go where a PPL gets you will destroy everything we have now if we go about it the wrong way !

 

 

[facthunter]

The insistence that RPL could go into controlled airspace is the reason the medical side of it got fouled up. Get your RPL PPL CPL and leave the rest alone . You may/will stuff it up for all the others.. Go for transit rights alone or take a suitably licenced pilot with you if you need maintenance etc. Tooling around in controlled airspace isn't something to be taken lightly. I've done plenty of it. The majority of my flying was done there. The extra knowledge required, most won't be active enough to keep up with and your electrical systems and radios aren't usually up to scratch for it. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

If a controlled airspace endorsement was available on a pilot certificate I couldn't see the traing/qualifying would be much different to doing a RPL.But then you would still have the aircraft certification and of course the medical requirements & and don't forget the $200 ASIC. So really pretty much what is available now.

I'm not really sure what CTA training entails, haven't really been able to locate any documents on it, but I agree it would need to be the same (if not better). The medical requirements would indeed need to be the same (CASA wouldn't have it any other way), which brings me back to my point, for those who don't want CTA nothing should change (ie medical only for CTA). An ASIC isn't required for flying through CTA, but if you intend on landing at a controlled airport it would be.

 

A question to ponder, do we even need a RPC? Is there a way we can incorporate the RPL as the licensing standard for our operations, thus reducing our overheads. RAA would then deal with aircraft rather then pilot licesning, with similar requirements needed to fly those aircraft under RAA control (ie a member, follow the manual etc).

 

 

[facthunter]

Are you saying we don't train pilots? What aircraft are we then trained in? The SAAA don't train pilots they use the PPL. I think they are going to buy into pilot training but I can't see how they can possibly achieve it with numbers about 1/5th of ours. They do have a problem though as in some instances their aircraft are very complex and have high performance. There aren't a lot of instructors around who are qualified/endorsed. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Are you saying we don't train pilots? What aircraft are we then trained in? The SAAA don't train pilots they use the PPL. I think they are going to buy into pilot training but I can't see how they can possibly achieve it with numbers about 1/5th of ours. They do have a problem though as in some instances their aircraft are very complex and have high performance. There aren't a lot of instructors around who are qualified/endorsed. Nev

I'm suggesting maybe an option would be that RAA doesn't take on the role of issuing pilot certificates and all that entails. Instead they would focus on the aircraft (like we do now), to pilot said aircraft you'd still need to be a member of RAA and do so in compliance of the Ops/Tech manuals. A possible way would be to have CASA introduce a new category of aircraft (for example Ultralight Aircraft) that suitably trained pilots would have on their license. It was just an idea, but makes sense to me.