Entry into CTA

[Bennyboy320]

If you can fly a radar heading & maintain an assigned altitude within +-100ft thats ops in a CTA, much easier than flying into class D airspace, I for one don't want to take the Foxbat to BNE or Gold Coast for circuits, however transiting the zone would be nice & with the location of some of the CTA e.g. Coffs would be a safer option rather than flying over the hills OCTA.

 

 

[facthunter]

There's a bit more than flying a good (assigned) heading and maintaining your altitude within limits, operating in a CTA. You are hardly conveying a correct impression there, of what it is about.. Transiting is a safety matter and is something worth pursuing for that reason alone. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

There's a bit more than flying a good (assigned) heading and maintaining your altitude within limits, operating in a CTA. You are hardly conveying a correct impression there, of what it is about.. Transiting is a safety matter and is something worth pursuing for that reason alone. Nev

Knowing what details are required by ATC and when, what needs to be read back aswell as the flying techniques/tolerances needed (keeping altitude, flying the cleared route etc).

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Guys, speaking as an airline check & training captain, flying VFR being radar vectored either through or for a visual approach is not a big deal, wether in an airliner or an RAA type a/c.

 

 

[coljones]

For those wanting everything on a budget, you need to know that controlled airspace is not free and my belief is if you want to use it get a PPL or RPL. RAA does not give out aircraft info so you may find that if Airservices can't charge then they don't want RAA and demanding CTA may add costs to all RAA members. The current arrangement is fine although some class D access as stated before would make things safer.An example of charges is minimum terminal navigation charge Coffs Harbour $14.70 per ton. When I had my C172 I paid a yearly fee which was significant and reviewed annually depending on the years usage. The link to charges and conditions is

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/services/charges-and-costing/customer-pricing-information/

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/ASAContractForAviationFacilitiesAndServicesJul2012.pdf.

 

Trying to make RAA pilot certificate go where a PPL gets you will destroy everything we have now if we go about it the wrong way !

It seems that Ultralights have some exemptions according to http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014-09-25-Contract-for-Aviation-Facilities-and-Services-Legal-Version-2.pdf We are finding that operators of Airports charge all sorts of fees irrespective of the control space.

Part of the deal is transiting CTA is to avoid dangerous areas fx the sea and mountains outside the narrow band of coast at Coffs Harbour.

 

There is no expectation that entry will be automatic but a right earned after examination and proof of competence (like all of our privileges). With the new RPL there is an optional earnable module for CTA which could be the model for RAA CTA access.

 

 

[Camel]

It seems that Ultralights have some exemptions according to http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014-09-25-Contract-for-Aviation-Facilities-and-Services-Legal-Version-2.pdf We are finding that operators of Airports charge all sorts of fees irrespective of the control space.Part of the deal is transiting CTA is to avoid dangerous areas fx the sea and mountains outside the narrow band of coast at Coffs Harbour.

 

There is no expectation that entry will be automatic but a right earned after examination and proof of competence (like all of our privileges). With the new RPL there is an optional earnable module for CTA which could be the model for RAA CTA access.

Well spotted Col, you referring to 3.4, I only spotted that after you, I don't want it to change. I have no problem with what you say Col, I too would like to see transit rights at certain places for all ultralights operated with the nessecary training and equipment. Transponder is not required at Coffs but it is strongly recommended as it makes the aircraft visual on TCAS for RPT's.

 

 

[facthunter]

benny There is more to it than that and you know it. You take the easy, fun bit as an example. Would you like to run us through the radio FAIL procedures? Also what might happen if you force an A 380 to do a go around or worse, cause a real incident with damage or loss of life? How many radio sets have you in your aircraft and do you really want the radio's and electrical systems some U/L's have, mixing it with the big stuff.? We all know you can do it because you are very familiar with it, but not everyone is like you. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Well spotted Col, you referring to 3.4, I only spotted that after you, I don't want it to change. I have no problem with what you say Col, I too would like to see transit rights at certain places for all ultralights operated with the nessecary training and equipment. Transponder is not required at Coffs but it is strongly recommended as it makes the aircraft visual on TCAS for RPT's.

There was talk recently of Airservices charging ultralights due to the increase of CASA permissions in Class D airspace. Not sure if it's an intention or if its official from a certain date.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I believe there is a threshold for charges, $500 (not sure of the period that is applied over.. per month or per year) coming to mind...but Im no expert!!!.....and I believe that in that case it was unlikely that charges would be applied to Joe Average just passing through, or landing (excluding Airport charges in this discussion) once or twice a year..... (cost of recovery and transactions greater than the revenue received)

 

However an RAAus flying school working in class D with a CASA exemption will likely be asked to pay just as his opposition next door who is a GA school does now.... (what's that.....I think I hear the GA guy leaping about saying something about bloody unfair that they haven't had to so far)

 

Andy

 

 

[rhysmcc]

I'm not too sure how it all works but i think if you are under $500 in the year, they offer you a set price for the following year, based on your previous usage. I'm not sure they wait till you reach $500 to charge you.

 

 

[01rmb]

If you want to transit controlled airspace or land at a controlled airfield then the ability to have the appropriate endorsements equivalent what you can get with the RPL endorsements (if they were ever made available to RA-Aus) would be great for a large number of people. If you don't want the privileges for controlled airspace and airfields then don't do the endorsements and you won't even know there was such a thing.

 

If it is good enough for RPL to be recognised as the equivalent to RA-Aus pilot certificate (at least by CASA even though the GA schools seem to have a problem grasping that) to have a controlled airspace and controlled airfield endorsement then why should RA-Aus and people with a pilot certificate be excluded?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this 'ATC are uncooperative and are being unfair by denying me a clearance' rubbish. I couldnt give two damns what type of aircraft you are in, if you dont get a clearance its because I can not safely give it to you using the seperation standards that are available to me. If I can seperate you inside my controlled airspace, than I WILL give you a clearance, regardless of whether you are a C172 or a B747. Also keep in mind that if you file a VFR flight plan as opposed to IFR (which is obviously not relevant in this situation), your plan does not get sent automatically to my screen, and if you call me I will need to call the flight data coordinators and get your plan sent to me, which means if you do this on the boundary it will cause a delay for you..

I went to Albury today for the 80th anniversary of the Uiver landing fly-in. Albury has both Class D and class C airspace. I didn't file a flight plan and I entered class D at 2500' via the Chiltern reporting point.

 

The tower cleared me direct for a straight in approach reporting at the Rutherglen Overpass and again on final. Some of the taxiways were closed because of the static display and he kindly directed me firstly to the bowser then to a parking area. The ARO gave me a lift back to my aircraft when I was leaving and the tower cleared me for an intersection departure (I really don't need 1900 metres). I got a "cheers" when I left.

 

Last time I went to Essendon, the tower directed me to park on the grass nearby and next to the gate; organised the security guy to let me out so I could go to the museum; and called them up again so I could get back in. He was really interested to know the history of my Auster and couldn't have been more helpful.

 

At Alice Springs recently, the lady in the tower understood when I slowed (100 KN to 80 KN) on the long run in from the Deep Well reporting point due turbulence, extending my time to enter the circuit, and so she rearranged departure priority for a Virgin flight (sending it off while I did a couple of orbits) without any stress. I was stressed because the gear in the tower was reporting 16 Kn of gusty crosswind at the time!

 

Those who look after CTA have a huge responsibility, heaps of pressure - safety and commercial - and in my experience are invariably helpful, fellow aviators. Give them a break.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Phil Perry]

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I was about to go on a pre PPL solo student nav in a 172, when my instructor said, "request a Perth overshoot on the flight plan" which is an approach to the active runway at Perth airport, descend to not below 500 feet and then exit the area as directed by ATC. He said "look, you probably won't get it because they seldom allow it anymore these days because they don't like small planes interfering with the RPT, but put in a request anyway".So I took off on the nav and after flying for a couple of hours was on my way back to Jandakot, when I called up Perth ATC and nervously requested the overshoot. To my horror they told me to orbit until they could fit me in. So I circled, all the time becoming more tense, until they called back with a series of instructions that I promptly forgot and they had to impatiently repeat. I anxiously flew the assigned heading to join base before turning final and coming in low to line up on this enormous runway with a big jet holding for departure until I was safely past. To an airline pilot it would have been totally unremarkable, but to a student flying alone it was downright scary. Glad I did it though.

rgmwa

Hey RG,. . . don't sweat it mate,. . . . . I got my ticket at Casey Airfield Berwick in 1973 ish, but at no time had any instructor taken me into a major airport, so Imagine my terror when I got asked by a friend to pick him up at Tullamarine International in a Cessna ! ! ! I did it, but nearly shatted myself in the process, I don't know why the instructors at that time didn't include a "Large Airport" CTA entry as part of the course. ( I'd been into Essendon just after training but that was a pussycat of a place ) ATC were absolutley Brilliant, and accepted my obvious shortcomings and inexperience without making me feel like a complete plank. They even allowed me to park at a gate lounge next to a rather large RPT. ( my "Mate" by the way/. . .was a senior operations controller with TAA. . . .dunno whether this smoothed the road or not. . . . ! ) [ Of cawse,. . . . back in them dayse,. . . .yer didn't need an endorsement nor one of them new fangled transponderdoodles . . . . . . . ]

 

It turned out to be a rather good experience, and removed any preconceived fears that I had about BEEG airports. . . . . The only reason I don't use them nowadays is that I can do without landing and handling fees totalling around 250 quid ! ! ! ! Oh,. . . and just in case you're wondering,. . . .we Don't have to have any special endorsements to fly into an international airport here in the UK, that's covered by your pilot training. . . . . you just need a Mode 'S' transponder in your Foxbat, with TCAS and loads of money is a definite advantage to pay for the handling service and landing fee. . . . ! ! ! ( unless it's surrounded by class 'A' airspace, where you need an instrument rating as well as the items outlined hereinbefore installed in your well equipped and approved flying appliance. . . .)

 

Phil

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

So in Australian airspace radio failure procedure can be found in AIP ENR 1.1para 21.2.8, basically

 

a. squawk 7600...not that difficult,

 

b. broadcast blind at suitable intervals e.g. call sign position & intentions,

 

c. look out for other traffic & monitor TCAS if fitted,

 

d. max exterior lighting on,

 

e.maintain last assigned speed & altitude for 60 mins & thereafter speed & alt as per flight plan.

 

As I mentioned earlier I think that flying into BNE, SYD or MEL in an RAA a/c isn't going to happen due to congestion, however the secondary controlled airports with very limited i.e. 3-4 RPT movements an hour no problems, yes I want to be able to transit Gold Coast coastal or via the western VFR route, the same goes for Coffs, both these airports will force me over tiger country to remain OCTA hardly the safest option.

 

 

[facthunter]

I am not seeking a confrontation with this but the radio failure procedures illustrate the sort of thing that is not quite applicable to our operations

 

. (b) might be complied with but the others mostly not useful. You will need the Class 2 medical for all but the few who can (honestly without deceiving their doctor) tick the boxes for RPL. We need to preserve our CURRENT privileges with medical and maintenance. They would be under threat in the CTA environment. BIG cost increases involved and many would leave the sport..

 

Few of the electrical systems are up to the required standard. They don't meet GA parameters. Even some of the brakes are not good enough to hold near an active runway reliably, with the engine running.. There's no backup Park function. in most. Nev

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

I'm in the same boat as you, i don't have an Australian medical & am unable to use my airline PC to waive a BFR requirements since Part 61 was introduced so I am not legally allowed to fly in CTA, very frustrating but I have to respect the referee, as far as elec systems a/c like the Foxbat & Jab are already on the VH register & can operate in CTA if appropriately fitted, as far as the Drifter etc go that's different

 

 

[facthunter]

Some of them are on the VH register but most aren't. We trade requirements for reduced privileges and hope to keep it simpler and cheaper.. It's easy to lose sight of that. Nev

 

 

[rgmwa]

Hey Phil. Looking back, what made it so nerve wracking for me at the time was firstly not having the reassurance of an instructor sitting beside me to keep me out of trouble, only having a GFPT and therefore not much experience, knowing that I was flying a small plane in busy, heavy-jet airspace with potential wake turbulence issues, communicating with BIG airfield ATC, worrying about changing frequencies properly when being handed to different controllers, and being anxious about misunderstanding their instructions. I'm sure the RPT captains and first officers listening in on the same frequencies had a bit of a chuckle as they heard me nervously making a fool of myself in their backyard, but it really was a very useful experience and I'm glad now I had the opportunity. The flying part was really not much different to coming into Jandakot, but unfamiliarity and information overload made it a lot more stressful. In fact, flying is the only activity I've ever done where at times I've realised that I'd reached the limits of my ability to process information. Practice and experience obviously makes this much less of an issue, but the potential for it to happen is always there when things go wrong or the unexpected happens.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[facthunter]

I always preferred going to Kingsford Smith instead of Bankstown., mainly because you keep away from the weekend warriors, filling the sky around the back of Sydney. Light aircraft lanes of entry are not the safest places to be either, especially on days of smog where the VFR is close to not being satisfied

 

We got a "coastal VFR" clearance from the north coming from Newcastle. We were known to most of the controllers back then, but if you stuff it up don't expect much joy in the future. They get involved when the $h!T hits the fan too.

 

We do have to get access along the beach at Willietown and places like Coffs. with sensible transit procedures some time . But that is a different proposition I believe. Nev

 

 

[Camel]

Agree with you Nev 100% , the back of Sydney lane is a very busy place, years ago I heard a position broadcast and responded because I thought it was near me and as I spoke I saw it on my left fly under me very close, I was high wing and so was he so I saw him but I doubt he saw me. It would seem sensible for this to be control but obviously the less the better after all the facts are that majority of accidents are in controlled airspace, probably because people let the controller do the clever stuff and don't look for themselves.

 

Left Coffs one day and was warned by ATC of a aircraft doing training circuits I climbed ahead to 1000' and no sign of aircraft extended a little more to be sure, made left turn towards coast then made right turn on coast to South and there it was filling my windscreen an aircraft in circuit so right turn to avoid, could not believe how far out and away it went for circuit.

 

Had 3 aircraft fly under me whilst flying coastal, and previously never replied to any broadcast, but after they past a voice said " did you see that plane above" .

 

Saw a plane today near coast, very close to CTAF and close to me, I called on CTAF and no response.

 

Also today was south of Coffs and got ATIS, code ZULU, monitored Coffs and a guy was repeatedly calling the tower, "COFFS TOWER- C------" for those unaware Zulu means it's a CTAF and class G, no one in tower.

 

When a plane passes willy or Coffs their journey keeps going so the coast is a busy place at times and scary if people don't know procedures or where busy locations are.

 

The Gold Coast with 500' north and 1000' South is a great idea I think.

 

 

[facthunter]

You need vertical separation . It shouldn't be hard to devise procedures to not descend below 1500' till inside the coast or such and light aircraft transiting to keep seaward of the coast. I'm not totally familiar with Coffs I must confess . I just give a few figures as an example of a hypothetical. You do these things for noise abatement. Why not for separation? Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

It's not as easy as that nev

 

Setting up procedural seperatio. Is very complex and at the end of the day to use it you'll still need to be CTA endorsed, otherwise why should casa or Asa trust we can fly a route without compromising the procedure.

 

 

[kaz3g]

ASA reviewing air navigation charges for RAAus aircraft using C or D airspace.

 

http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/airservices-reviews-ra-aus-charging-policy?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter+3rd+October+2014&utm_content=Newsletter+3rd+October+2014+CID_5614aceb4e75d30cc9143fbafaca7e2e&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=Airservices%20Reviews%20RA-Aus%20Charging%20Policy

 

Kaz

 

 

[coljones]

ASA reviewing air navigation charges for RAAus aircraft using C or D airspace.http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/airservices-reviews-ra-aus-charging-policy?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter 3rd October 2014&utm_content=Newsletter 3rd October 2014 CID_5614aceb4e75d30cc9143fbafaca7e2e&utm_source=Email marketing software&utm_term=Airservices Reviews RA-Aus Charging Policy

 

Kaz

It seems, at the moment, that fees are levied on GA when the expected load is greater than $500 pa. At $20 per landing that is 25 a year. I would presume that the operators are chalking up a lot more than 25 landings a year. for most RAA types, unless you lived at a D drome and visited only occasionally then there would be no charge now or in the future. Looks like I will have to get a move-on if I want to do circuits in the Jab at Sydney for free.

Kaz, did AirServices sting you at Alice Springs, or are you still waiting?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Auster = GA= VH- , I think MAUW is just under 1 tonne from memory and empty weight is > than our max limits