Board meeting motions

[Geoff13]

Not really Andy an advertisement is a bit like a forum. I look for what I want and read respond etc. A magazine is like a book. I sit and read and relax and I much prefer paper books to the kindle/ipad. And besides that I have several different books/magazines with aircraft for sale in them that I look at. In fact I have queried a couple of ads out of magazines as well.

 

An apology that throws further insult based on an incorrect assumption is not worth the paper it was written on.

 

 

[dazza 38]

The aviation safety magazine came every couple if months and I read it cover to cover and kept them since it went electronic I have not read one and possibly never will.

Me too

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Well IMO if I am allowed, is I think it's a mistake to drop the paper magazine, have we looked at other publishers, editors, etc before we make such a decision. I don't like reading electronic versions of any magazine, I like Geoff, look forward to the day when my magazine comes to my letterbox so I can sit down and read it cover to cover and then again the next day if I so wish, I have all my magazines for the last 12 months, much to my wife's displeasure but that's another story.

 

So what our leaders are telling us here is that there is no way we can continue to have a paper magazine in it's current form..I find that hard to believe that we have exhausted all other options before we took the step to cancel and go to an online version? Well that's my opinion whether it is right or not...

 

David

 

 

[dodo]

Because I was thinking beyond the current document.. Its with CASA at present for final (hopefully) checks. But it is the intent that instead of waiting heaps of years for another mammoth update, we will produce regular minor updates and they will, as per the motion, be fully reviewed in a known and controlled way including member review. The current one is too far into its release cycle to allow for member review, and TBH was probably too far 12 months ago to meet the CASA timelines.....I suspect that most like you who have said if we don't get input into this one are thinking we'll be stuck forever..

 

However I believe current thinking is that minor updates should not be so hard to push through the process...... I believe (personal opinion) that the thinking was 90% correct is about 40% more than we have at present! and the next 20% (10% remaining and 10% changing) will go through relatively easily....

 

Andy

I find it difficult to have any confidence in that.

 

RA appears to be operating as an pure subcontractor of CASA, (except CASA does allow for consultation - note recent delays to allow for consultation!)

 

On substantive matters, RA simply does not communicate or consult. Let alone have the membership have any real say. Shut up and pay...

 

And yes, I do vote, go to AGMs and EGMs, send considered letters on issues, volunteer in the office when useful - but it is clearly a total waste of time. I doubt I will in future.

 

dodo

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well IMO if I am allowed, is I think it's a mistake to drop the paper magazine, have we looked at other publishers, editors, etc before we make such a decision. I don't like reading electronic versions of any magazine, I like Geoff, look forward to the day when my magazine comes to my letterbox so I can sit down and read it cover to cover and then again the next day if I so wish, I have all my magazines for the last 12 months, much to my wife's displeasure but that's another story.So what our leaders are telling us here is that there is no way we can continue to have a paper magazine in it's current form..I find that hard to believe that we have exhausted all other options before we took the step to cancel and go to an online version? Well that's my opinion whether it is right or not...

David

David, ....The President has stated that we will always do the paper magazine, as a good many members ( myself included) will always go for the paper version over electronic, however some will choose to recieve it electronically. It would be a huge mistake in my opinion to drop the paper one completely and I would never support that..........Maj...

 

 

[Keith Page]

Well IMO if I am allowed, is I think it's a mistake to drop the paper magazine, have we looked at other publishers, editors, etc before we make such a decision. I don't like reading electronic versions of any magazine, I like Geoff, look forward to the day when my magazine comes to my letterbox so I can sit down and read it cover to cover and then again the next day if I so wish, I have all my magazines for the last 12 months, much to my wife's displeasure but that's another story.So what our leaders are telling us here is that there is no way we can continue to have a paper magazine in it's current form..I find that hard to believe that we have exhausted all other options before we took the step to cancel and go to an online version? Well that's my opinion whether it is right or not...

David

Ditto..Ditto.. All you have post in your post.. Yes look at alternative paper transmission.

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I get the EAAA mag electronically two weeks before the paper one. I deliberately don't read it so I can enjoy the paper one when it comes.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Why can't we have both, maybe in the next magazine or maybe simple email sent out to all members and ask members which one they prefer, electronic or paper and that's what they will receive each month, it would also be a good guide as to the general feeling of the proposal for the electronic magazine, I know which one I would be ticking.

 

I know some of us have issues with paying for a subscription to get a paper mag but I would not mind at all to pay some extra money each year to the have the magazine sent to me in my preferred format.

 

I believe that we seem to have the right people running our organization now, so in saying that, I need to believe that they will manage our finances in a well managed and transparent fashion so that if I do pay a subscription to my magazine this money will be used for this purpose alone !!!

 

We know costs are going up every day and we can not expect that our membership fee's and costs associated with running the organization will not go up accordingly, nothing stays the same.

 

David

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Why can't we have both, maybe in the next magazine or maybe simple email sent out to all members and ask members which one they prefer, electronic or paper and that's what they will receive each month, it would also be a good guide as to the general feeling of the proposal for the electronic magazine, I know which one I would be ticking.I know some of us have issues with paying for a subscription to get a paper mag but I would not mind at all to pay some extra money each year to the have the magazine sent to me in my preferred format.

I believe that we seem to have the right people running our organization now, so in saying that, I need to believe that they will manage our finances in a well managed and transparent fashion so that if I do pay a subscription to my magazine this money will be used for this purpose alone !!!

 

We know costs are going up every day and we can not expect that our membership fee's and costs associated with running the organization will not go up accordingly, nothing stays the same.

 

David

David, I believe the CEO intends to do a survey of members on the magazine selection....possibly in his next Email letter ....generally feeling is that it will be a 50/50 split for or against the online version.........Maj....

 

 

[turboplanner]

There is absolutely nothing to stop you from having both, and even an additional weekly news report except cost, so for example if the administration costs per member were $90.00 per year, and you were happy to pay $150.00 (total $240.00 per year), and if 50% of the other 8,999 members agreed with this, then that's what you can have.

 

The news media is shifting very rapidly from print to digital in many forms, and advertising has followed it, and one opportunity for this site would be to set up a section with advertisers pages indexed by product and no option for smart alec comments. If the cost was kept to a minimum I can see people going to those pages regularly to browse for suppliers, and that would allow institutional type ads running month after month, or perhaps even interactive ads where orders can be placed on the spot.

 

 

[biggles]

In this electronic age with the diminishing tendency to receive snail mail there is a certain " ownership " about a paper copy . As a long time recipient of the CASA publication " Flight Safety " I found it difficult to understand why they ,of all people , decided to change to the current electronic format , particularly having regard to the fact that the only reason for their existence is safety , other than maybe some ambitious desk jockey trying to bring to the notice of his similarly ambitious superiors , how tech savvy they are , and their apparent concern regarding the spending of public money . Anyway I dutifully downloaded their new App. and checked out the first few editions , but for some unknown reason have not bothered to read the recent downloads . Maybe it's because they are not "just there " to pick up as I walk past , or maybe it's just that I am really too old to keep up this tech savvy charade . Whatever the reason , in my case they have failed the very reason for their existence , which is to promote safe skies for all . I suspect the electronic version of Sport Pilot will have a similar fate over time . Posters here have given many reasons in opposition to the electronic version .... " like to read the mag in bed etc. " and a variety of other reasons . On the other hand, I , like many others well understand the reasons for our relatively small , poorly funded by CASA organisation , to look for ways to trim their expenditure , but is this apparently loss making exercise really the best way ? . This is not a criticism of the current board members , who have my full support in these difficult times often in the face of adversity to ensure the continued viability of our Organisation . Their commitment ,particularly in regard to time expended , is commendable .

 

Bob

 

 

[jetjr]

Pretty sure EAA works that you can option to pay more and get paper copy

 

I love paper versions but really not prepared to pay extra for it, going digital is a change and if keeping paper systems going is going to cost more (time and money) then those who want it can pay.

 

Problem is if 50% only prepared to pay then cost each could be VERY high.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I am a member of a number of organisations with magazines. Scouts Australia (Qld branch), in my opinion, handle the on-line edition the best. When Encompass is available I get an email with link. Scout leaders on-line probably outnumber RAAus members as our members, being youth, are very active in that sphere, we even have JOTI (Jamboree on the Internet). In between times we get email "newsletters" and alerts.

 

 

 

I get Kitplanes and EAA Sport Pilot on-line, but also have a paper magazine for the better half to read. I tell him what he's missing - one day he will try reading the screen. We also get AOPA and the on-line in between edition. The one that does on-line badly is CASA (and I have offered suggestions to them). When Flight Safety first went on-line you had to register using your ARN etc and wait 14 days for a password to be mailed to you which expired in 28 days. I had two attempts because I was away. They did away with that, but there is no email to remind you to look for a new edition.

 

 

 

We also get other publications, booklets etc, one of which charged an extra $30 for a hardcopy posted (someone had to print, cover, bind and post) but one day I paid the on-line only, downloaded, printed and bound. He enjoyed it nearly as much as a magazine, although it didn't have the magazine feel, it had better quality & care than the one from the publisher. Now he asks for on-line for me to print.

 

 

 

There's also a difference between the layout of an on-line offering to a magazine format. The on-line layout is foreign to him, but I find it better.

 

 

[peter]

Travelling for work, a lot, I watch the weight of luggage carefully and having online magazines has been heaven. I can look back over dozens of past issues, I can carry as many novels as I want, I can read the local paper from home when I'm nowhere near home. It was Ozrunways that induced me to buy the IPad and I have been really happy with all the apps and features.

 

I would definitely elect to go electronic, in fact I would probably be prepared to pay a little extra to have the magazine in that format,

 

Peter

 

 

[AVOCET]

Not really Andy an advertisement is a bit like a forum. I look for what I want and read respond etc. A magazine is like a book. I sit and read and relax and I much prefer paper books to the kindle/ipad. And besides that I have several different books/magazines with aircraft for sale in them that I look at. In fact I have queried a couple of ads out of magazines as well.An apology that throws further insult based on an incorrect assumption is not worth the paper it was written on.

You might have to leave the GROW OLD DISGRACEFULLY logo ,

Dosent realy meld that well with the freedoms we seek .

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Pretty sure EAA works that you can option to pay more and get paper copyI love paper versions but really not prepared to pay extra for it, going digital is a change and if keeping paper systems going is going to cost more (time and money) then those who want it can pay.

Problem is if 50% only prepared to pay then cost each could be VERY high.

Well if 50% of all members were prepared to pay a subscription to cover most of the costs of the paper version it remains to be worked how much that 50% would need to pay to enjoy their magazine, remembering that you have advertisers that are also paying the costs towards producing the mag, now what about the other 50% that want the electronic version.

 

I think it has already been determined that there is also a cost to this, so are these members prepared to put their hands in their pockets to help produce this version of the magazine? or do they think there membership monies alone should cover these costs, IMO I think they should also pay a subscription, less than what the paper version will be no doubt but none the less they need to pay something to ensure that both versions are eventually cost neutral.

 

Now a much smarter person than me needs to canvas quotes for both versions and come up with the costs to members, let's hope this can be done in a timely manner and not dragged out !!!

 

David

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well if 50% of all members were prepared to pay a subscription to cover most of the costs of the paper version it remains to be worked how much that 50% would need to pay to enjoy their magazine, remembering that you have advertisers that are also paying the costs towards producing the mag, now what about the other 50% that want the electronic version.I think it has already been determined that there is also a cost to this, so are these members prepared to put their hands in their pockets to help produce this version of the magazine? or do they think there membership monies alone should cover these costs, IMO I think they should also pay a subscription, less than what the paper version will be no doubt but none the less they need to pay something to ensure that both versions are eventually cost neutral.

Now a much smarter person than me needs to canvas quotes for both versions and come up with the costs to members, let's hope this can be done in a timely manner and not dragged out !!!

 

David

David ...As I understand it from recent discussion the magazine gets put together electronically in the first place......it would be simple at that point to just send it to all who want it electronically ( after the board has read and approved it of course), then... And this is where the money comes in ...the magazine is printed on paper and produced as a magazine. Then it has to be put in a plastic bag with any additions and then posted ( alphabetically by the way..so if your name is Wang you probabily always get it way after Mr Adams would get it )...it is the second part that costs the money ..plus of course also paying the editor to produce the whole thing in the first place. The suggestion is for members to recieve the electronic version free as part of membership , but pay an additional amount if they want it in paper form posted to them....CEO still looking at all options so no decisions made yet, and nothing yet approved by the board.

 

 

[AVOCET]

I still want the paper version ,

 

I just dont need the "VOUGE" style paper , the smell , the wast of good resorces ,.

 

Ill settle for glossy cover and LESS quality pages.

 

. More quallity on the content .

 

Cheaper advertising

 

And discounts ,based on a case by case .

 

Now that would be a members Magazine !!!!!!!!

 

Mike

 

 

[GAFA]

By removing the paper version from newsagents means you cut of possible new members. If there is no way for Joe Public to read about RAAUs,then you have just removed a source for attracting new members.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Perhaps a poll from members, say in the last ten years or so, how they were introduced to flying.

 

I remember reading a flying mag at Johannesburg airport while waiting for a delayed flight a few years ago.

 

It got me interested enough to get involved when I got home.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Well if 50% of all members were prepared to pay a subscription to cover most of the costs of the paper version it remains to be worked how much that 50% would need to pay to enjoy their magazine, remembering that you have advertisers that are also paying the costs towards producing the mag, now what about the other 50% that want the electronic version.I think it has already been determined that there is also a cost to this, so are these members prepared to put their hands in their pockets to help produce this version of the magazine? or do they think there membership monies alone should cover these costs, IMO I think they should also pay a subscription, less than what the paper version will be no doubt but none the less they need to pay something to ensure that both versions are eventually cost neutral.

Now a much smarter person than me needs to canvas quotes for both versions and come up with the costs to members, let's hope this can be done in a timely manner and not dragged out !!!

 

David

David

 

That is not correct. The preproduction magazine in PDF file is sent to the board in advance of printing and distribution to ensure there are no issues.... It is the same PDF file that gets sent to the printers and in the future may well be distributed as the emagazine. There is no additional costs for preparing the electronic file, all there is, is no printing and distribution costs. If there is to be a paper version subscription related costs then as I understand the early straw man proposal it will be 100% related to the printing and distribution costs.

 

The printing costs are made up of fixed costs setting up the necessary input files from the provided input PDF file and preparing the presses for our run. These are the same costs whether we print 1 copy or 10,000 copies. Then there are the unit costs and these are generally the same per unit so if you print 10,000 there will be 10,000 unit charges. The difficulty will be that when you print 10,000 the fixed costs get spread across all 10,000, when you print 1,000 then the fixed price per unit is 10 times what it originally was. If we go for a 100% user pays cost then the price per paper magazine will be different each month as folks who want a subscription come and go, but we collect fees only once per year so there will need to be plus a bit minus a bit at the end of the year to allow for the application of fixed costs across a monthly variable amount. Today with 10,000 copies the addition or subtraction of 100 magazines represents a variance of 1% of the fixed costs so not something to be too concerned with, if there are only 1000 members who want paper then that same 100 variance represents a 10% variation and is therefore more variable (but materiality tests might well show it to be insignificant, wont know until we see the break up of fixed and variable costs), but not enough to drive the need to vary the price per month......

 

With the strawman I believe that the member portal will have a copy of the magazine made available to the membership and a link emailed to everyone as part of the email newsletter and at the same time its sent to the printers . Those that want a paper version can ignore the link and wait for the time Brian Bigg included in the last magazine as to how long it takes for printing and distribution so those that read the electronic versions will read on say the 1st of the month, those that wait for paper will likely wait at least another month, maybe more, depending on AustPost performance, but of course on principle wont open the PDF version while they wait.......

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why would you post the magazine to the member portal and not on the open website?

 

Are there some people so obsessed with secrecy that even now they don't want it in newsagencies?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Why would you post the magazine to the member portal and not on the open website?Are there some people so obsessed with secrecy that even now they don't want it in newsagencies?

Newsagents are a negative income area for the magazine Turbo.........from memory to the tune of about a $3600 loss per month.......

 

 

[Geoff13]

DavidThat is not correct. The preproduction magazine in PDF file is sent to the board in advance of printing and distribution to ensure there are no issues.... It is the same PDF file that gets sent to the printers and in the future may well be distributed as the emagazine. There is no additional costs for preparing the electronic file, all there is, is no printing and distribution costs. If there is to be a paper version subscription related costs then as I understand the early straw man proposal it will be 100% related to the printing and distribution costs.

 

The printing costs are made up of fixed costs setting up the necessary input files from the provided input PDF file and preparing the presses for our run. These are the same costs whether we print 1 copy or 10,000 copies. Then there are the unit costs and these are generally the same per unit so if you print 10,000 there will be 10,000 unit charges. The difficulty will be that when you print 10,000 the fixed costs get spread across all 10,000, when you print 1,000 then the fixed price per unit is 10 times what it originally was. If we go for a 100% user pays cost then the price per paper magazine will be different each month as folks who want a subscription come and go, but we collect fees only once per year so there will need to be plus a bit minus a bit at the end of the year to allow for the application of fixed costs across a monthly variable amount. Today with 10,000 copies the addition or subtraction of 100 magazines represents a variance of 1% of the fixed costs so not something to be too concerned with, if there are only 1000 members who want paper then that same 100 variance represents a 10% variation and is therefore more variable (but materiality tests might well show it to be insignificant, wont know until we see the break up of fixed and variable costs), but not enough to drive the need to vary the price per month......

 

With the strawman I believe that the member portal will have a copy of the magazine made available to the membership and a link emailed to everyone as part of the email newsletter and at the same time its sent to the printers . Those that want a paper version can ignore the link and wait for the time Brian Bigg included in the last magazine as to how long it takes for printing and distribution so those that read the electronic versions will read on say the 1st of the month, those that wait for paper will likely wait at least another month, maybe more, depending on AustPost performance, but of course on principle wont open the PDF version while they wait.......

 

Andy

So Andy correct me if I am wrong, but you think that those members who prefer to get a paper version of the magazine (and are willing to pay extra for it) should not access the online version on principle even though their membership fees helped to pay for it. Strange concept really.

 

Normally I wouldn't access an online version of a magazine but just say someone rings me up and says hey Geoff you should read the article in the new mag about xyz airplane that I am thinking of buying then in all likelyhood I would go and have a look the same as I would if he rang and said go to such and such a website and have a look at the story on xyz airplane. Many people are happy to do things online but still prefer a printed magazine that does not make them hypocritical or unprincipled as you have implied.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[Geoff13]

Just as another option rather than going down the electronic magazine/subscription model. Has the possibility of taking the magazine inhouse and doing it been considered? I know of one group that has done that in the recent past and turned a $30,000 plus deficit per quarter into a profit inside 6 months. Please don't assume that I am saying that it could happen here because obviously as a newby I have no concept of what I am talking about and the situation here could be totally different but I just wonder if this possibility is being investigated. It may be another way to redirect all those staff that have been put on to solve the registration issues once they are sorted and go online.

 

Cheers Geoff13