Board meeting motions

[fly_tornado]

All bullsh!t.

 

The RAA have about 11,000 membership renewals to process

 

3,500 aircraft renewals

 

200 flying schools to bill

 

the rest of the system is mostly information storage.

 

The empire builders inside the RAA want to make it as slow and painful transition as possible, if they drag it on long enough the board might change and abandon the process.

 

The best way to avoid change is to claim its too expensive or complex, all the vested interests wants to find the most expensive and bloated solution to the problem.

 

Imagine the excitement when the board finds out that "modernisation" can't be done for less than $1m, yet the board expenses and staff wages are happily ticking over with an off the shelf accounting package...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I am sure if you look closely at the recommendations when they come out, the biggest expense will be training for the staff that the package was designed to make redundant.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

FT so what exactly is it that you would want quoted at this point in time. Sure you've provided some words but as a software developer/or OTS configurer what exactly is it that you want done. Who is it that can define the exact set of requirements is it a single person or a group, if the later how much time does $25k buy? What are our contractual obligations to CASA that must be incorporated in a system, How would you like it to Audit......

 

These things can be brushed off with some words like "simple system, simple really!!"

 

When the developer/supplier says he's finished...Tada! how we know he has delivered what we wanted if we don't even have a document that we all agree defines what it is that needs to be done?

 

Please don't try and oversimplify the exercise. It is not the worlds most complex activity I grant, but equally its not an insert disk click next, next, next and we're done thing either. I have been involved in ERP systems where the licensing cost was multiple millions and that was only 10% of the total costs......We need something like that like we need a hole in the head, but installing MS access on a few machines isn't going to do it either......

 

Now I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but what life experiences in systems that run multimillion dollar organisations do you bring to the table to allow you to determine that 25000 should have been 2500...... My personal view is that until we do a bit we will have no idea what it is that we need and how much it will cost, if the CEo manages to get solid requirements that all stakeholders sign off on for 25,000 I for one will be well pleased!

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Andy I would get someone from the RAA staff to contact several RAA type organizations in the UK, Canada and NZ and see what their experience with automation has been. If the CEO rings up your typical Canberra IT shop and gets taken to Sydney for a consultation, the whole thing is going to be a financial disaster. I just can't see where the $25K is going to go.

 

Deborah I have a back ground in ITC, along the way I managed to write my own billing software. Writing software isn't as hard or as complex as people make out it just takes time to get it working properly. I found a web based open sourced package and just rewrote parts of it that didn't work properly. But having worked with committees I know how difficult it is to get them to "get" IT projects when half the members can barely use email and have no interest in learning. I just can't see where the $25K is going to go.

 

 

[skeptic36]

FT so what exactly is it that you would want quoted at this point in time. Sure you've provided some words but as a software developer/or OTS configurer what exactly is it that you want done. Who is it that can define the exact set of requirements is it a single person or a group, if the later how much time does $25k buy? What are our contractual obligations to CASA that must be incorporated in a system, How would you like it to Audit......These things can be brushed off with some words like "simple system, simple really!!"

 

When the developer/supplier says he's finished...Tada! how we know he has delivered what we wanted if we don't even have a document that we all agree defines what it is that needs to be done?

 

Please don't try and oversimplify the exercise. It is not the worlds most complex activity I grant, but equally its not an insert disk click next, next, next and we're done thing either. I have been involved in ERP systems where the licensing cost was multiple millions and that was only 10% of the total costs......We need something like that like we need a hole in the head, but installing MS access on a few machines isn't going to do it either......

 

Now I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but what life experiences in systems that run multimillion dollar organisations do you bring to the table to allow you to determine that 25000 should have been 2500...... My personal view is that until we do a bit we will have no idea what it is that we need and how much it will cost, if the CEo manages to get solid requirements that all stakeholders sign off on for 25,000 I for one will be well pleased!

 

Andy

Has the idea of sharing what, either the HGFA or (apparently)ASRA are successfully using been discussed?

Regards Bill

 

(HGFA member not RAAUS)

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

FT, thanks, lets get a size comparison, for your system:-

 

1) What annual turn over did the system cater for

 

2) How many discrete transactions per year did it cover

 

3) How many concurrent staff used the system (all transacting at the same time)

 

4) Billing for how many service types

 

5) Any related modules that fed into billing but of themselves weren't just for the purposes of raising an invoice (for example tech is about maintaining records that relate to an aircraft, and which annually generate a billing, but that is not the main reason for the module existing, rather to assure our regulator that we are registering and renewing only aircraft that we are entitled under their rules, to register)

 

6) How did you assure against system failure, could you recover to a point in time knowing at that recovery point what has been transacted in the system and what is to be transacted.......after all its a multiple staff system, no single person understands what transactions have occurred and what haven't....unless you build it into the system.

 

I suspect we are probably not comparing apples for apples, but I may be wrong

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Has the idea of sharing what, either the HGFA or (apparently)ASRA are successfully using been discussed?Regards Bill

(HGFA member not RAAUS)

Bill I've been in the job 1 week, and in the face to face time we had managed to stuff 16hrs of meeting/training into 8hrs so don't know the answer to your question, however I meet again with a significant subset of the board and staff in a few weeks time and will raise it then.

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Andy calm down mate, no one expects this system not to cost a million bucks.

 

When I was writing software, I was primarily looking to save time and remove human error, you have different set of priorities especially when it's your money on the line. To create a paper trail for auditing we used credit cards and BPay both of which are highly automated. There is no reason for the RAA to handle cash is there?

 

As far as working the logic for whether or not an aircraft is illegible to be re-registered, its just a case of working through the data set and writing a report that picks up the data correctly and processes the right outcomes. You will never get rid of people in the office but you can remove the time it takes to process the transaction. Show me the data set and the logic you currently use and I can tell you how hard it is.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

See FT that's exactly the point....you cant tell us how easy it is or isn't until you've seen it....which is pretty much exactly what I said about gathering requirements...same job, different terminology......So please hold off on telling us its easy or hard until you have something on which to base that....

 

Ive never seen a bespoke application for a multimillion dollar turnover company successfully written without a requirements document and I've sure never seen one written for $2500.00. I'm sure they exist but I'm equally sure that the amount of Contract Change Proposals CCP's (at premium rates) that had to be applied to make it work probably doubled or tripled the initial contract price, something we cannot afford to let happen......This initial work up the front is not the place to try and scrimp I'm sure if you talk to any professional Project Manager he will tell you the same thing!

 

And I note that you didn't provide me one answer to the questions I asked. Are we talking Apples for Apples???

 

I am calm....sorry if the posts don't show that!

 

as to your comment "no one expects this system not to cost a million bucks".....your doing it again you've jumped right to Z without going anywhere near A to C. I have no idea what it will cost until I see the requirements document. I would naturally expect the CEO to question and challenge each requirement and at the very least assign a "mandatory", "highly desirable" or "desirable" clause against each requirement. I would expect him to thin out those that cant justify even a desirable priority before the board gets to see it.

 

And at this point in time there isn't anything more from me to be said, I'll let you and anyone else who wants to put their 5c in discuss

 

Andy

 

 

[coljones]

snip snip snipThe reality is that if we leave magazines exactly as they are, then we must ask the members for additional dues to cover the deficit unless there is an alternate part of the budget to find a lazy $300k.

snip snip snip

Andy, I think you are doing a great job, keep it up. We don't hate you.

In the past, as part of budget process, there would have been a hypothecation of the income in support of the magazine. That would have worked out as some $$s per member. Is the organisation spending more or less than the per member hypothecated amount? I don't believe it is proper to call a hypothecation a loss unless the numbers per member have changed. If we put aside $30 per member when we had 300 members that would be a total of $9000. with 10,000 members at $30 per member that is $300,000. I am not sure what the problem is unless the Board is trying to cover a bottom line situation from some other area.

 

As I have said before I don't have a problem paying more if need be but I am a bit leery about shoving items around in the budget just to cover unbudgeted costs.

 

Cheers

 

Col

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Col

 

This was explained at the AGM by the treasurer we know exactly what is causing the deficit. The specific bit from his PowerPoint slide was:-

 

Major Factors Effecting the Deficit

 

• Staff wages (45%)

 

• Insurance (14%)

 

•Sport Pilot (15%)

 

So looking at those 3, in the short term we are completely unable to control 1) or 2) both of those rely on past performance and CASA adding to the work we have to do without changing the funding..

 

You are right in saying that the magazine alone doesn't directly account for all the deficit but its the only one of the 3 that we can in the short term do anything about.

 

You personally may be Ok with paying more but I put it to you that in the current economic climate that is unlikely to be universally the case.

 

Treasurers powerpoint here

 

Andy

 

 

[pmccarthy]

We just got costs for upgrading our systems at work. About $400,000 to upgrade for 200 employees and around 600 projects per year, each project entails about five monthly invoices, so about 3000 invoices per year. This is to reduce the labour of our existing processes. So I would guess $0.5-1.0M for RAAus would cover it.

 

 

[Oscar]

FT, thanks, lets get a size comparison, for your system:-1) What annual turn over did the system cater for

 

2) How many discrete transactions per year did it cover

 

3) How many concurrent staff used the system (all transacting at the same time)

 

4) Billing for how many service types

 

5) Any related modules that fed into billing but of themselves weren't just for the purposes of raising an invoice (for example tech is about maintaining records that relate to an aircraft, and which annually generate a billing, but that is not the main reason for the module existing, rather to assure our regulator that we are registering and renewing only aircraft that we are entitled under their rules, to register)

 

6) How did you assure against system failure, could you recover to a point in time knowing at that recovery point what has been transacted in the system and what is to be transacted.......after all its a multiple staff system, no single person understands what transactions have occurred and what haven't....unless you build it into the system.

 

I suspect we are probably not comparing apples for apples, but I may be wrong

 

Andy

Andy: the post that you are responding to indicates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the business process management requirements for the RAA. It's not worth the question, frnkly.

 

Let's take just a simple example (and this is an OVER-simplified example, BTW) of the sort of inter-relationship required in RAA modules.

 

Let's look at a basic, non-complex re-registration.

 

Assuming an on-line application for re-registration, an effective RAA BPM system would need to check:

 

• Applicant is the currently Registered Owner of the aircraft (potential Registration Module);
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• Applicant is a bone-fide current Financial Member of RAA (potential Membership Module) ;
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• Aircraft has current posted photos of required Placards, Registration numbers etc. (potential Registration Module);
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• Aircraft has supplied evidence of compliance with SB's, /AD's etc. (potential Airworthiness Module);
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• If Applicant is an FTF, Applicant is a current registered FTF (potential Approved FTF Module);
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• If Aircraft is LSA-certified, is the Australian LSA certification holder (the Importer, for many aircraft) currently approved (or in existence??) [ I'm not sure where this would fit without undertaking a scoping exercise, but prima facie; it's a toss up between a sophisticated Airworthiness Module or a discrete Compliance Module).
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• Have all relevant fees for service charges been paid? (potential Receipts Module)
   
   
  

 

 

For 'whole-of-enterprise' system, you'd need to add at the very least, a Pilot Accreditation module.

 

The idea that any comparison with a billing function for a minor web-based service is in any way a baseline to evaluate the development cost for a BPM system for the RAA is laughable.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Andy, so where is the $25K going? that's what I am asking. Would the RAA be better spending $200K on the specs, maybe send theCEO and board over the EAA for a fact finding mission?

 

Oscar the above is pretty strait forward, each plane has a unique rego number and is a unique type and has a compliance history and a registration class. When the aircraft anniversary is due you use your report to see if its still valid to be renewed. The compliance history is either open ended or expires if the compliance hasn't expired its all good.

 

It's a couple of tables and a few logic tests

 

If its all good, move onto your member financial checks, process the credit card and issue the renewal via email throw in a QR code on the renewal so that CASA can do a spot check via mobile phone.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

People

 

A number of you have raised advertising and the magazine and I have chosen to not answer those questions because there is a number of separate contracts of which I don't have access to at present that would need to be understood to answer accurately. Furthermore contracts are inherently commercial in confidence with only those that are party to agreements needing to understand them.

 

As there are those here who are not RAAus members I do not feel I can put right some very commonly written perceptions of how it works that are simply wrong.

 

Andy

 

 

[robinsm]

Remember people, you are paying for your certificate renewal each year plus your aircraft registration each year. I am paying 210 plus 130 which equals 340 dollars a year. and you want to increase my fees, I dont think so,(you just did that recently). If 3000 members are in the same situation then you have $1 million plus for just those. Then the other 7000 members and their input financially makes a considerable sum of income per year. Has CASA been approached to contribute to the work they are creating (albeit from our previous incompetence). One would think the magazine would have been cost neutral given the advertising charges, returns from newsagents etc. How was it originally done when we were not in the financial troubles we are now. I dont know anything about our new head of state but I hope he can temper financial wisdom with people skills and not make a profit at the expense of the organisation (save the organisation, kill the income base?) Good luck to him.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

I doubt casa will be forthcoming with any extra cash, they have their own saving cuts to deal with. Also non for profit asking for more handouts when they have a couple of million in the bank will most likely be laughed out the door.

 

We either find a way to be neutral (before our savings dry up) or it's game over, something I think the board are pushing us towards (being neutral)

 

 

[Geoff13]

My question about advertising Andy is not who pays what or how, but simply does the advertising cover its own costs? If not drop the advertising and just give us a basic members magazine. Cut the gloss and the myriad of pages wasted on advertising and give us a back to basics mag.

 

If the advertising does pay its way, then there should be no losses on the magazine because advertising should pay for it. I don't for a minute think that we the members should subsidise the advertisers in our magazine.

 

I have seen this in club mags so many times, where the advertisers are seen as gods. I for one don't want pages of adverts I want a simple basic mag that tells me stories abut flying and people involved and a bit about the club and where it is going.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[rhysmcc]

I might be wrong here but my understanding is the production and delievery of the magazine is contracted out, which RA-AUS pays a set amount (unsure if it's per member, per copy or a standard amount). The advertising is done by the publisher who profits/uses that money to pay the rest of the magazine?

 

Maybe someone who is in the know can confirm or correct as required?

 

 

[Geoff13]

As for the

 

Major Factors Effecting the Deficit

 

• Staff wages (45%)

 

• Insurance (14%)

 

•Sport Pilot (15%)

 

If our board think that the only one that is touchable in the short term is number three, then I think we have a problem with the board.

 

• Staff wages (45%) or 3/5ths

 

• Insurance (14%) or 1/5th

 

•Sport Pilot (15%) or 1/5th

 

1/3rd of staff wages for the same cost as our magazine. Carry the debt until we can implement a system to cut staff wages. A 1/3rd cut in wages (from a system based on steam) should be easily achievable by implementing a suitable IT package. Don't throw out a serious member benefit for a short term gain when given some time and effort the savings can be made elsewhere. By all means trim the fat from the mag to make it more cost effective but in my experience of clubs/groups, once a member benefit is gone it is almost impossible to retrieve.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[robinsm]

Geoff, where the hell do you get off cutting wages for a magazine, if I wouldnt be censored, I would tell you how offensive that is...

 

 

[Geoff13]

I never suggested cutting wages. Where did I say that? My suggestion was to replace staff with technology. It is what industry has been doing ever since the technical revolution began and if we don't do it we will be a dead dinosaur.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[robinsm]

"carry the debt till we can implement a system to cut staff wages" theres the quote. I would have thought efficient and proper management would fix things. So we throw more staff on the unemployment line. I give up...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Andy,So when the decision was made to pull the magazine from the newsagents were the businesses that advertise in there consulted to get their views and about whether they will be getting their moneys worth in advertising and if they were consulted how many I wonder are still going to be there, don't we gather income from these businesses through their advertising fees?

David

David, removal of the magazine from the news stand for two months is part of the research that the CEO is doing to establish why the magazine consistently operates at a loss each month to the tune of 35-40 K. It is a good example of our very qualified CEO doing what he is paid to do....We cannot continue to endure that type of loss and incurr the annual budget deficet that we currently have.......Maj....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Why did the board think that investigating "modernization" required $25,000? You'll get the same answers for $2,500

It is not that the board approved the sum of $25,000 for modernisation . The previous lower limit was increased to allow 'up to ' that amount should it be required over a one year period for use by the CEO in one of several areas. There are checks and balances within the office on any spending by anybody, it is not solely one persons decision...........