Board meeting motions

[Geoff13]

I think you give up to easily. The system appears to be broken and to have been so for a long time. It needs to be fixed an brought into the 21 century. My point was simply that 45% percent of factors affecting debt is Staff wages. The powerpoint does not say 45% of expenses but 45% of factors affecting debt. The obvious thing is to look at all of the major factors affecting debt not just the one which fits into the category (we can cut this and no-one gets hurt) and is 15% of the problem. Yes if you are going to implement and IT systems to improve efficiency and cut cost it goes without saying that people are going to be replaced. Now you can jump up and down and throw histrionics at it as much as you like but when 45% of the factors affecting debt are staff wages then staff are going to be cut either now before we go broke or if the hard decisions are not taken now then it will be later on when we go broke. By then the Magazine, The insurance and Staff Wages will all be cut so dramatically that we will have nothing left.

 

Fairly basic economics really. There are many bankrupted companies in Australia who are there because management failed to face reality. And many going to the wall or offshore because management were either to afraid of unions or impotent against them. Holden and Ford to name just 2.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[coljones]

Please don't fight.

 

The budget tells nothing about costs of activities it only tells us about costs of inputs. It doesn't give a Profit or Loss for the activities either so you can't really work out the P/L of the magazine, registrations, renewing members, ASIC or pretty well anything else. Just because labour is a big chunk of the expenditure we can't tell from the budget of labour cost efficiency. We do know that a lot of both paid and unpaid labour went into getting the rego stuation under control.

 

If we were running a licenced club the Bar, Dining Room and poker machine profit and loss would feature highly as individual activity reports.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Cutting wages doesn't mean we have to lay off staff or cut their pay. By implementing an automated/online system and reducing the amount of clerical staff. This can be done by not replacing/refilling the positions as staff move on. From memory someone is finishing up in a few months... I hope as a first step that position may also be wrapped up

 

 

[coljones]

Cutting wages doesn't mean we have to lay off staff or cut their pay. By implementing an automated/online system and reducing the amount of clerical staff. This can be done by not replacing/refilling the positions as staff move on. From memory someone is finishing up in a few months... I hope as a first step that position may also be wrapped up

I used to work for the government. Under ministerial diktat staff weren't replaced due to efficiency dividend requirements. As a consequence the cost of typing a letter rose quite significantly and the quality plummeted because the typist was not replaced and letters were done by highly paid and skilled professionals doing their own typing. Because their efficiency fell they also produced less documentation so while their decisions and work was still at quite a high level the amount of backgound info they left declined as well. Sacking staff is not a universal panacea.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Andy

 

You are correct I apologise for putting forward suggestions, but I thought the boards job was to administer for the members. Not for a minute would I suspect that bringing in an efficient system will be done overnight. But so far one best things that I have seen of RAA is the magazine. I would hate to see that killed off for a short term saving. And as rhysmcc said cutting wages does not mean laying off staff. There is a thing called natural attrition. As you said yourself this cannot and will not be fixed overnight nor should it be but then nor should a member benefit be killed off overnight.

 

As for 1300 board members, that is what not what this is but it is more a voicing of opinions, listen to us all an then the 13 of you make the decisions to best benefit the majority. That is why you are there and that is all the membership can ask. At least there is obvious communication happening and that can only be good in the long run.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Geoff

 

If I recall correctly your a relatively new member and are either learning or have just finished training...I don't recall you having a plane yet so I'm guessing your exposure to the troubles of the past and what caused them is non existent or limited to what you read here, I expect that your personal exposure to Aircraft registration issues is equally non existent. Your personal exposure to any annual renewal processes is likely pretty limited or non existent. Your understanding of how and why we have had to add staff members over the last 3 yrs or so is probably equally non existent, yet your prepared to tell me that the magazine is more important than anything else.......If my recollection of your standing/experience is correct do you see any problem with that?

 

I removed my grumpy post because having stood up to offer to take on the role a few comments from the side should be perfectly Ok, especially as I was more than prepared to point out what I perceived as serious inadequacies with the board members at the time so turn about is fair play. Don't give it if you cant take it etc....

 

My first paragraph in this email is not meant in a nasty way, neither am I poking fun at your newness, we are all new at some point in time, however someone who didn't know might well read your post and think your view is as valid as another's yet your newness is of itself reason imho to suggest that you don't have the full story on which to base your recommendations.

 

I apologise if I have played the man and not the message, but in this case the message is IMHO wrong because of the newness of the man.

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

Agree, probably better to read up on what history is available rather than run off half cocked when it's already been discussed and in some cases reached a conclusion.

 

 

[dodo]

Andy,

 

on the issue of the Ops manual you wrote:

 

"There will be no ramming it through with the new CEO established procedure."

 

I can't understand that at all. No draft has been released, and as it stands,all negotiation with CASA will be complete before the membership ever see a draft - at which point we are hardly likely to be able to get any changes made.

 

The board has consistently stonewalled all requests for information. My letter regarding one notified change (type certification) to all three of my NSW board reps did not result in any reply, or even an acknowledgement from any of them.

 

I know other members have asked for drafts or information and been flatly refused.

 

The Ops and Technical manuals are the most important parts of RAs role.

 

How can we pretend to be a membership based organisation when the membership has NO INPUT whatsoever in their content?

 

So how will it not be rammed through?

 

dodo

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Because I was thinking beyond the current document.. Its with CASA at present for final (hopefully) checks. But it is the intent that instead of waiting heaps of years for another mammoth update, we will produce regular minor updates and they will, as per the motion, be fully reviewed in a known and controlled way including member review. The current one is too far into its release cycle to allow for member review, and TBH was probably too far 12 months ago to meet the CASA timelines.....

 

I suspect that most like you who have said if we don't get input into this one are thinking we'll be stuck forever..

 

However I believe current thinking is that minor updates should not be so hard to push through the process...... I believe (personal opinion) that the thinking was 90% correct is about 40% more than we have at present! and the next 20% (10% remaining and 10% changing) will go through relatively easily....

 

Andy

 

 

[rhysmcc]

GeoffMy first paragraph in this email is not meant in a nasty way, neither am I poking fun at your newness, we are all new at some point in time, however someone who didn't know might well read your post and think your view is as valid as another's yet your newness is of itself reason imho to suggest that you don't have the full story on which to base your recommendations.

Sorry Andy but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on this one, all members regardless of their experience, time with the association or other qualification has the right to share their view and opinion and be taken as valid as any other member

 

The fact the whole story may not be known is not the fault of the member but the fault of the management whom feel we as members don't need to know the whole story.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I take your point.... as a point in mitigation......But notwithstanding its still wrong IMHO

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Some of his point is right and was mentioned earlier last week. We do have a collection of clerical staff whom I'm sure do a great job, but how much of their day is wasted doing tasks that should be automated. For example receiving my pilot renewal in the mail and processing it.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Personal opinion:-

 

I have never disagreed with that, but if its up to me I'm not going to let the budget deficit be realised if there are things I can do to get us to the point that we are not spending more than we are earning via other means. The system automation efficiencies we are talking about will be realised in time, but to be clear, its my opinion that realisation wont likely be seen as reduced costs this financial year, or if they are, and I doubt it, it will be in the last months such that the effect on the full year actuals will be minor. I don't believe the CEO or the board are prepared to sit back and say "forward with the deficit as planned, it will be all good soon...." That would be placing all your eggs in a single basket and is a derogation of our fiduciary responsibilities.

 

Andy

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Re the magazine going online.

 

I reckon that there are some brains out there that can do a costing and income spreadsheet.

 

For instance..

 

Costs for a magazine editor.

 

Income from advertising.

 

Software/hardware to collate costs.

 

It shouldn't be too hard to count the advertisers and guesstimate the income.

 

If the 40k a month cost figure for the mag is a fact, I can see some real savings here.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Professor Avius cam go for a start!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Re the magazine going online.I reckon that there are some brains out there that can do a costing and income spreadsheet.

 

For instance..

 

Costs for a magazine editor.

 

Income from advertising.

 

Software/hardware to collate costs.

 

It shouldn't be too hard to count the advertisers and guesstimate the income.

 

If the 40k a month cost figure for the mag is a fact, I can see some real savings here.

The magazine is done on contract..currently Brian Bigg is the editor and the company that produces and publishes. The mail out is done by a sub- contracted company to him. Don't know when the current contract ends, however the board has directed and given permission to the CEO to look at all aspects of the magazine and all altlternate possibilities for the future.

 

Personally I feel the magazine has been very good lately and I have told Brian that on several occasions. We just have to work to make it all cost neutral or even better to produce a profit..

 

 

[rhysmcc]

The magazine is done on contract..currently Brian Bigg is the editor and the company that produces and publishes. The mail out is done by a sub- contracted company to him. Don't know when the current contract ends, however the board has directed and given permission to the CEO to look at all aspects of the magazine and all altlternate possibilities for the future.Personally I feel the magazine has been very good lately and I have told Brian that on several occasions. We just have to work to make it all cost neutral or even better to produce a profit..

And with any luck reduce the lead times, generally by the time I read the mag it's all 2 month old information. I support the digital idea, with a paper subscription option.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The magazine is done on contract..currently Brian Bigg is the editor and the company that produces and publishes. The mail out is done by a sub- contracted company to him. Don't know when the current contract ends, however the board has directed and given permission to the CEO to look at all aspects of the magazine and all altlternate possibilities for the future.Personally I feel the magazine has been very good lately and I have told Brian that on several occasions. We just have to work to make it all cost neutral or even better to produce a profit..

It can be wonderful to the point of tears but if it costs half the subscription you'll eventually be lynched.

 

 

[Geoff13]

GeoffIf I recall correctly your a relatively new member and are either learning or have just finished training...I don't recall you having a plane yet so I'm guessing your exposure to the troubles of the past and what caused them is non existent or limited to what you read here, I expect that your personal exposure to Aircraft registration issues is equally non existent. Your personal exposure to any annual renewal processes is likely pretty limited or non existent. Your understanding of how and why we have had to add staff members over the last 3 yrs or so is probably equally non existent, yet your prepared to tell me that the magazine is more important than anything else.......If my recollection of your standing/experience is correct do you see any problem with that?

 

I removed my grumpy post because having stood up to offer to take on the role a few comments from the side should be perfectly Ok, especially as I was more than prepared to point out what I perceived as serious inadequacies with the board members at the time so turn about is fair play. Don't give it if you cant take it etc....

 

My first paragraph in this email is not meant in a nasty way, neither am I poking fun at your newness, we are all new at some point in time, however someone who didn't know might well read your post and think your view is as valid as another's yet your newness is of itself reason imho to suggest that you don't have the full story on which to base your recommendations.

 

I apologise if I have played the man and not the message, but in this case the message is IMHO wrong because of the newness of the man.

 

Andy

I admit I am new to RAA. But in the last four months I have spent the biggest part of 3 to 4 days per week at different airfields. And not just an hour a day but 5 to 6 hours per day. I have spoken to a lot of people who have been around a long time. Not only that I have spent ten years on committees of the largest motorcycle affiliated association in Australia. So I have some concept of what I am talking about. And in terms of airfield/people hours I have probably by the force of my interest and nature got as much experience and information as people who have been around for years and not been to an airfield in recent memory. In 4 months I have nearly 100 hours in the air and I didn't get that by sitting here tapping keys the same as I didn't get all my info from just this forum. When I am passionate about something I make it my business to find out about it. That includes it's history, its structure and it future. Now I am not for one second going to sit here and pretend that I know everything. That would be hypocritical, I have though made it my business to find out as much as I can in as short a time as possible.

 

Yes Andy you are playing the man but I have been played before and have a relatively thick skin. You see my opinions are just that and when I put pen to paper or electrons to wire in this case I am just voicing my opinion. And in my opinion the magazine is to date the best member benefit to me. The system has been broken for years by your own admission we have had to employ staff to help fix it. I have no problem with that and I am sure that in the short term that is most likely still the best solution. However there are other things that can be done over the longer term. My point whether I get it across well or not (written English is not my strongest point) is simply that we should not through a knee jerk reaction to save money, throw out a great member benefit. If we have been wasting money for this long then lets sit back and do a full analysis of the best way to stop the bleed before we start sticking band aids on.

 

As for playing the man well you have gone down a few points in my opinion tonight but that probably doesn't matter as I am just a newbie and my opinions must be assessed with a view to my time on the ground rather than my life experience. Besides I live in Queensland so my vote can have no effect on you in future elections. So play the man all you like in my opinion that says far more about you than me.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well it is nice to see someone actually giving some thought to how they may vote in the future !.......looking good ...maybe we can get a few more next time than the 400 or so that we got the last time around.........if you failed to cast a vote for your organization then you don't have the right to a winge either............Maj......

 

 

[Geoff13]

Totally agree with that Maj and I freely admit to not having voted this time. When voting closed I felt that I was not yet well enough informed to make a fair decision. I shall not be so reserved in future.

 

PS when I joined Ulysses it was always the faithful 400. We are now up to a faithful 600. Electronics and modernisation can achieve results.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Geoff

 

So lets talk about "throwing out"......... If I throw something out I loose all use of that thing don't I? Its gone never to be used again........If I replace a paper magazine with an Electronic Magazine that is edited by the same editor, has the same contributors contributing and the same, more or less, advertisers advertising then what exactly is it that you've lost? At the meeting we were told by the CEO that 92% of our members have a working email address to which he sends his monthly newsletters....If 92% of the membership can read an email from him then without a great leap of faith I'd say 92% of them already have the means to read an electronic version of the magazine.

 

I accept that not all 92% will prefer electronic over paper but I'll bet there aren't many of that 92% who choose to not open and read....but time will tell.

 

Anyway, unless my understanding of "Throw out" is vastly different to yours I think as a description of what is happening it's over the top, especially as the early thinking (which is not yet accepted and agreed by all) is that paper will be offered at an additional price to those that must have it, the price per magazine will be more expensive because instead of printing 10,000 of them we'll probably only produce 1,000....but even so, that's user pays in action for you and in the same way as you can choose to avoid voluntary road taxation by choosing not to speed so to you can choose not to pay the paper price.....

 

You were correct that things have been broken for years (IMHO) but the running of the organisation has improved over just the last year, that improvement wasn't a case of good luck, but rather a core group of members changed the constitution a few years ago so we could have an extraordinary General Meeting to highlight to the larger membership the inadequacies of the organisation while at the same time (unrelated to the afore mention team) CASA chose to progressively ground our fleet. It really only was when all those things happened that the changes we needed could occur.

 

In looking at what I wrote last night again tonight I could see with great irony that Middo, may very well have written the same email to me about 3-4 years ago...I wasn't as new as you, but in terms of understanding our board and our staff I pretty much was just as new and had equally strong views on things......Of course over time as I started to understand how things worked...or didn't....my views changed as I suspect yours will as well. which is a round about way of saying I think your wrong.....but I understand why and have been there myself.

 

regards

 

Andy

 

 

[Geoff13]

Andy

 

I don't read the Ulysses Magazine electronically. I don't read the CMCA magazine electronically and I wont read this one electronically. I love to read and do so a lot. I however like to lay on my bed and read or sit in an easy chair and read or read over the steering wheel whilst sitting in a queue at the wharf. So if the magazine goes purely electronic I will have lost a member benefit. It will have been thrown out. I in fact am happy to user pay for many things in life including a magazine.

 

The difference between you and Middo (whomever that may be) in this case is you belittled me publicly when I simply voiced and opinion that disagreed with your view when you suggest he may have sent you an email. Your role on the board is to listen to the members not to belittle them. Now not for one minute did I think my opinion was the only one nor that it was totally correct it was however my opinion and I as a member have a right to voice it without being told it holds no weight because I am a newby. IMHO opinion you are doing yourself no favours here.

 

And to the rest of the members of the forum I apologise for inadvertently hijacking what is in fact a very important thread but I will not bend over and take whatever anyone feel they may like to throw my way.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[Camel]

The aviation safety magazine came every couple if months and I read it cover to cover and kept them since it went electronic I have not read one and possibly never will.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Geoff

 

Its clear from this thread and others that I have seriously hurt you. That was not my intent and I unreservedly apologise for that hurt.

 

You're right, you are entitled to your view

 

Andy

 

P.S I did note that in looking for a new aeroplane you didn't mind looking at the online advertisements rather than waiting for them in the magazine 6-8 weeks later...another life irony hey!