Help with Controlling aircraft at slow speed and circuits training

[Aldo]

Nev

 

I agree with what you are saying, last week a friend of mine asked if I would investigate on his behalf getting a RAA pilot certificate with the intention of going on to PPL the times were min 20 for cert and 5 for cross country, if it took me 25 hrs to learn to navigate to a competent standard (VFR) clock, compass wiz wheel and map (no GPS or OzRunways) and I'm not a complete dummy how can someone be competent in 5 to the same VFR required standard.

 

This is certainly the least expensive way to go and what I would recommend but I question the competency of a 25 hr pilot sharing the same cross country airspace as me and flying into somewhere like Roma these days.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mervwhen the requirements were a whole lot more stringent than a 20 hour RAA pilot certificate requirement or 25 if you want a cross country endorsement back then (if I remember correctly) it was min 35 hrs to get a RPL (GFPT these days) and min 25 hrs to get your nav (PPL).

 

My opinion I don't think the training requirements for RAA are stringent enough.

Aldo, none of this post is accurate. May I respectfully suggest that if your going to make comments on the standards required, you first become familiar with what those standards are,

 

What does confuse people is when people makes statements and posts that are inaccurate and ill informed.

 

What is the difference between the GA and the RAA syllabus? Can you tell me?

 

 

[facthunter]

Aldo . You quote minimum hours. I don't think there are many who do it in the minimum times. The standard is performance based.. There are plenty of PPL's demonstrating their lack of ability too. Currency and training STANDARD are factors. for ALL pilots, even airline. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Aldo . You quote minimum hours.

No, the quoted times were not correct. None of them actually.

 

 

[facthunter]

I didn't take that point up, but ALL hours specified are minimums, I understand. Nev

 

 

[ayavner]

...in any case, in reality its not as though the guy (OP) was actually asking anyone to teach him how to fly or do anything for that matter over the forum. Having recently been in his shoes only a short couple years ago I can assure you it is just a normal part of the learning process that you want to vocalise your anxiety or questions to hopefully a sympathetic audience, talk it through, that sorta thing.

 

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and i don't think every time someone asks a question that it needs to be jumped on with wailing and beard pulling and wrapped in disclaimers.... he's just looking for a bit of reassurance and maybe opening his mind to different ways to consume the info his instructor gives him, that's all.

 

 

[facthunter]

Certain advice could be a problem for the communication and relationship with the most important two people at this time, (the student and the instructor). It's better to prevent a problem rather than fix it. It even happens when you have a substitute instructor sometimes in place of your usual one, particularly in the INITIAL stages. At my stage of life I couldn't care less about having a different instructor, but that is not what we are talking about. There would be a wide variation in the way the syllabus is presented by different people. TOO much? I don't know, but it could be a problem. There are a lot of "rugged individualists " out there, perhaps here too. Nev

 

 

[recflyer]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. If I asked the question again I would certainly phrase it differently. The intent was to get some tips in preparation for the lessons and not to gain advice that is any way conflicting with anything taught from my instructor.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

 

[Yenn]

I may be one of thos rugged individuals, but I reponded to the question in a way that I thought would be helpful, plus raise a bit of interest. Anything we read on the web should be carefully thought about and not taken as gospel. It is even possible for your wods to be misinterpreted, and that could lead to problems, but the advice here is usually worth what it costs. Sometimes worth a lot more.

 

 

[recflyer]

...in any case, in reality its not as though the guy (OP) was actually asking anyone to teach him how to fly or do anything for that matter over the forum. Having recently been in his shoes only a short couple years ago I can assure you it is just a normal part of the learning process that you want to vocalise your anxiety or questions to hopefully a sympathetic audience, talk it through, that sorta thing.Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and i don't think every time someone asks a question that it needs to be jumped on with wailing and beard pulling and wrapped in disclaimers.... he's just looking for a bit of reassurance and maybe opening his mind to different ways to consume the info his instructor gives him, that's all.

Thanks, I think you summed it up well. I will be more careful in posting questions in the future re flight training tips.

 

 

[recflyer]

I may be one of thos rugged individuals, but I reponded to the question in a way that I thought would be helpful, plus raise a bit of interest. Anything we read on the web should be carefully thought about and not taken as gospel. It is even possible for your wods to be misinterpreted, and that could lead to problems, but the advice here is usually worth what it costs. Sometimes worth a lot more.

Thanks for your comments and time.

 

 

[recflyer]

Certain advice could be a problem for the communication and relationship with the most important two people at this time, (the student and the instructor). It's better to prevent a problem rather than fix it. It even happens when you have a substitute instructor sometimes in place of your usual one, particularly in the INITIAL stages. At my stage of life I couldn't care less about having a different instructor, but that is not what we are talking about. There would be a wide variation in the way the syllabus is presented by different people. TOO much? I don't know, but it could be a problem. There are a lot of "rugged individualists " out there, perhaps here too. Nev

Thanks Nev! You have some interesting points.

 

 

[recflyer]

yeah pay attention to everything about how it feels in slow flight, not just the feeling of the controls itself, but a feeling for how to put the aircraft where you want it when you want it at the slow speed - ie, maybe at height your instructor will let you follow a road or some features... cuz guess what landing is?? Slow flight!First couple times i did slow flight, early in my lessons, it seemed like it was just a box to tick but after changing instructors and enough time passing, the true value of really absorbing slow flight sunk in and landings started to become less of a frenetic sequence of events and more of just a nice controlled slow flight where i just happened to be on the ground at the end! Hell, do several lessons in it if you need!

 

adam

Thanks again! I am really enjoying reading your blog at the moment. I am up to the post about your first solo. Its great, keep it up!

 

 

[recflyer]

Recflyer. I have an RV4 and a Corby Starlet. Both are good at slow flight, by which I meanless than about 60% of cruise speed. The advice from others about rudder use is really good. Later on in training see if you can get some practice at slipping, it is a very useful tool to have at times.

Wow, two very cool aircraft! Did you build both?

 

 

[facthunter]

Recfly,,The last thing one needs when in the air is confusion. Read through most calamities and that is the problem. Don't feel bad about asking questions. I've always done it, despite being made to appear a fool. It didn't work because the fool is the one who doesn't ask the questions when he/she is not SURE for fear of appearing silly .Nev.

 

 

[Aldo]

No, the quoted times were not correct. None of them actually.

Merv

 

Sorry for my late response I have been away for a few days, yes I did make a mistake, I quoted 5 hrs for the RAA navigation when it is I'm led to believe 10 hours. At no stage was I comparing current day PPL to RAA my comparisons were between RAA and the training I did when I learnt to fly (as that is what was relevant to me).

 

Training requirements when I learnt to fly (1987) were as follows (part 40.1.2 section 7 ANO issue 8)

 

Restricted Private Pilots Licence

 

30 hours including a minimum 15 solo

 

3 hours instrument (not applicable to RAA)

 

Flight test approx 1.5 hours

 

Removal of area restriction

 

22 hours of navigation training (including a minimum of 6 hours solo) - consisted of 7 navigation exercises

 

2 hours instrument (not applicable to RAA)

 

Flight test approx 3.5 hours

 

The CTA part of our training didn't add any additional hours to training we just planned Brisbane, Maroochydore or Oakey as part or our nav exercises

 

With the above my opinion remains the same, I don't think the current RAA training is stringent enough 30 hours V's 52 hours. 22 hours is a lifetime when you are just learning to fly.

 

As I have said my opinion - you don't have to agree with it, but I do in excess of 200 hours a year (both GA and RA - Jab 230 and I love it) and I see a lot of people who are not competent (once again my opinion) in both GA & RA. If you don't believe me go ask some of the GA charter operators operating in and out of places like Roma and Toowoomba what they think when they hear an RA call sign in the circuit area.

 

That said I love what RA offers in terms of affordability and freedoms to aviation but it will eventually be taken away if the competency levels are not there.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

No worries Aldo.

 

Things have changed considerably since you did your training. I pointed out the difference seein as a current student was asking for advice, which he recieved from several instructors.

 

Your advice was that there was no need to study the relevant theory ( which was the advice of some instructors)

 

Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But stating the standards of training are too low and then Usng incorrect figures as a basis for the Comment deserved some " attention"

 

Mate try flying into or out of bankstown on charter, or Camden or moorabin, mixing it with all sorts if traffic, you will find its a little more demanding than Roma.

 

Standards are different among individual pilots, and if you see or hear somthing you have a safety concern about, then Please use the correct channels to have it sorted.

 

Bland comments regarding low standards don't help a student who was asking for advice.

 

Cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Might I suggest you start a separate thread on " low training standards in Raa, and invite comment:)

 

 

[ayavner]

 

....................

 

 

[Aldo]

Merv

 

I don't want to argue with you, you're an instructor (and by all accounts a good one) and obviously have your patch to protect (I don't disagree with that at all) my initial post stated listen to your instructor, he/she won't let you crash.

 

I wasn't the one who started quoting look at the lift/drag curves etc (they won't tell you shit) the aeroplane will tell you all you need to know at his/her level (in fact at most levels until you get into heavies), I did say yes you need to understand the theory.

 

I would ask the question "how many people on this site or elsewhere apply the lift/drag theory to everyday flight" I would hesitate to say that most people couldn't explain it, how many people know what their V Ref speed should be based on weight and conditions etc (I'm sure Dutch, Nev and Bennyboy could) not that it is particularly relevant to light aircraft but theory all the same.

 

I have been into Camden, Taree and Coffs in the last month (albeit IFR in a Navaho which makes it easier from my side and a tower for separation) no real problems, Roma is apparently the busiest regional airport in the country at the moment and Toowoomba can be pretty busy at times as well (the thing is these places are busy with fast aircraft 5 miles a minute stuff and Ctaf only, not tower controlled that makes it a little different), I'm sure Bankstown can be a real headache with all the training not much different to Archerfield though when it is busy.

 

My main concern is that people don't know where they are at a particular point in time or where the other aircraft are at the same point in time (I know this comes with experience as I didn't at one time know either) but by reducing the training for people who share the same airspace in my opinion is not safe.

 

Once again my opinion but don't confuse the new student on a website/blogsite with stuff that his/her instructor will no doubt be keeping them up to speed with.

 

The poor guy asked about slow flight, simple keep it above the stall speed and fly the posted speeds in the POH no more difficult than that.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanks for the opinion Aldo.

 

How did you go with starting that thread?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

300 kt acft I to Roma? Really?

 

 

[Aldo]

300 kt acft I to Roma? Really?

Try half a dozen B350 King Airs (on descent profile) generally up around 300kts (GS) throw in a couple of dash 8's all arriving within 10 to 15 minutes of each other, try slotting your Jab 230 into that mix if you don't know where you or the others are in a CTAF environment without stuffing up the whole show.

You had better understand that if you are at ten miles in a 2 mile a minute aircraft and a 350 has just made a 30 mile inbound call he will be all over you in the circuit or on a straight in approach and more to the point the 350 will have a lot of difficulty seeing you.

 

Anyway this is way off topic so I will leave it at that.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Wow. 6 king airs and a few dash 8's all at once. All of which with tcas

 

And ifr no doubt so traffic advice given from Brisbane. Not too much drama there mate.

 

Your correct, well off topic.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Also I see what you mean about standards being crap. Apparently the king air drivers going into Roma at 300kts don't know the rules regarding speed restrictions in class g. ;)