Help with Controlling aircraft at slow speed and circuits training

[AVOCET]

What i dont get is what is a jab or any U/L doing in the approach paths of RPT .?

 

Sounds like Y BUD !

 

 

[Aldo]

Wow. 6 king airs and a few dash 8's all at once. All of which with tcasAnd ifr no doubt so traffic advice given from Brisbane. Not too much drama there mate.

Your correct, well off topic.

Merv

No radar coverage from 50 miles out and if you don't believe me fly out there yourself and experience it first hand, TCAS is fine if everyone has a transponder (I don't ). You are allowed to do 300 down to 10000 and 250 after that and that is TAS not ground speed. It is all see and avoid and talking on the radio with updated position reports.

 

Not hard if you know what you are doing.

 

 

[Aldo]

What i dont get is what is a jab or any U/L doing in the approach paths of RPT .?Sounds like Y BUD !

Avocet

I'm there because I'm travelling to that destination the same as anyone else, pretty hard not to be in the approach path of any aircraft if you're all going to the same place.

 

I didn't learn to fly to stay within 10 miles of where I took off from, I use it as a mode of transport and fly to wherever I have to go.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I've flown in there many times :)

 

So 300 kts was an exaggeration yea?

 

 

[Aldo]

Go back to school and learn the difference between ground speed and TAS. 5 miles a minute is speed over ground so yeah 300 any wonder the students and new pilots have trouble.

 

No exaggeration just repeating what the guys inbound told me on the radio so we could position ourselves not to get in each other's way

 

 

[motzartmerv]

5 miles a minute is speed over ground so yeah 300 any wonder the students and new pilots have trouble.

yea, I agree. When supposedly experienced pilots (according to them) exaggerate and blow things up to make themselves look good ,all the while putting down the standards of the very organisation the students are training under.

 

For your "numbers to work" you would need to be flying in 50 kt winds in your 230. Is that something you do a lot? Or did you just pull out the worst possible case scenario to demonstrate how far superior your training was?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Go back to school and learn the difference between ground speed and TAS. 5 miles a minute

Speaking of going back to school. Speed restrictions below 10000 feet in Glass G is 250kts IAS, not True Air speed.I can recommend a good school if you want some refresher training.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Merv

 

 

 

I have been into Camden, Taree and Coffs in the last month (albeit IFR in a Navaho which makes it easier from my side and a tower for separation) no real problems,

Taree is a CTAF, with no tower providing separation. Camden and Coffs are both class D, where the tower only provides separation between IFR-IFR, or IFR- SVFR. So perhaps there is going to be problems if you think the tower is going to separate you with the multitude of VFR traffic there. How are those standards looking now Aldo?

 

 

[Aldo]

Merv

 

Yes I wasn't thinking it is IAS which by the way is normally lower than TAS (these guys normally fly the pole on descent anyway), as far as 50 knot winds go a few weeks ago on downwind into 29 Toowoomba indicating 105 and had a ground speed of 156. Yes during winter regularly fly with 35 to 45 kt tailwinds from home to Toowoomba and also regularly land my Jab in 15 kt crosswinds and it still has more rudder authority available, it's not the wind that's the problem it is the person in the left seat understanding when the conditions exceed their ability or the capability of the aircraft and in that case going somewhere else more suitable.

 

I haven't said my training or flying is any better than anyone else and I'm not about to start now (I just voiced an opinion that I didn't think RA training was stringent enough, like anyone else I'm entitled to an opinion)

 

Other than that I merely made a comment to a low hour student listen to your instructor and let the aeroplane tell you what it needs and believe the picture out the front, you jumped in with the make sure you understand the theory bla bla bla and if it was that easy it would be simple, truth is it is that simple.

 

I just disagreed with your approach, what I forgot to say was make sure you check with the guru of all instructors Merv before you do anything further.

 

I'm pretty well aware that Taree is a CTAF and that the others are class D but cleared through CTA and handed off to tower for a straight in approach makes it a lot easier tower is not going to put us in conflict on final with other aircraft IFR or VFR so not sure what your point is there.

 

Pretty sure that I don't require too much additional training at the moment thanks.

 

Pretty quick rule of thumb while flying for IAS to TAS if you're interested, but you probably already know it

 

IAS + (IAS * .02* Alt) = TAS

 

e.g. 250kt @ 10000

 

250 + ((250*.02*10) = (TAS)

 

250 + (5 *10) = 300 so pretty easy to have a GS of 300kt if the wind is up your backside

 

Same applies for all altitudes just add 2% of your IAS per 1000 feet to get TAS, do you teach your students this?

 

 

[facthunter]

250 kts indicated gives you more TAS the higher you are . It's a requirement below 1o,000' almost universally. Wasn't in the old days in OZ. Europe has had it for much longer than we have.. It's a pity in a way as you can often separate traffic better by some going faster . Maintain BEST speed was really something. 380 indicated, but it takes you about 20 miles to get hack to flap extend speed in level flight, power off. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

That's ok Aldo. I'm certainly no guru. But even I've had enough dodgy raa training to find errors in just about everything you have said, and seeing as it was you that decided to rubbish standards, I was pointing out the flaws in your training/ knowledge.

 

So before you rubbish us poor old in trained raa pilots , be sure your 100% right in everything you say . Cool?

 

If you want to start another thread as I suggested the please do so. We have hijacked this thread enough.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Aldo]

250 kts indicated gives you more TAS the higher you are . It's a requirement below 1o,000' almost universally. Wasn't in the old days in OZ. Europe has had it for much longer than we have.. It's a pity in a way as you can often separate traffic better by some going faster . Maintain BEST speed was really something. 380 indicated, but it takes you about 20 miles to get hack to flap extend speed in level flight, power off. Nev

Nev

 

Must have been fun in a 727

 

 

[facthunter]

The way they were flown in the 70's was like the Yanks did it. You can be at 10,000' on downwind and get in with a normal sized circuit. Versatile but you had to watch it with sink rate and spooling up motors. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

C'mon fellas!! Starting to sound like some sort of Professional Pilot R network..

 

The reason I mentioned the power/drag curves is the OP was asking for things he could do to prepare and I believe that while understanding where ther aircraft is in its stage of flight is important and having a "feel" for it more so, I know myself that I didn't truley understand what was happening or, more importantly what was about to happen and the consequences of it being mis managed until I got my head around them. More power to go slower you say? Well that makes no sense sorta thing.

 

As far as standards go, Im happy to say that the "Private" flyers in general seem to be below standard to be dealing with busy RPT/Charter aerodromes. But so was I when I had 20hrs and a RA cert or 55hours and a PPL. Solution!? Scrap the RPL, PPL, and everyone has to do a 200hr CPL with a MECIR so as they have an understanding of the IFR guys.... That's clearly not going to happen and would cripple GA in the flight training sector so we need to deal with it. We are not all at the same standard on the roads either. (Unless you life in BRM then it's a fight for the bottom. )

 

The only thing that actually bugs me, well two things actually, in order and firstly. Radio calls, I never picked up that AIP till late in training to learn RX and each instructor passed on how he thought how it should be done and that only suited that aerodrome so when I hit the big bad world things were quite different. I don't expect a private guy to be able to recite the AIP but at least have an understanding of what calls are required and what are NOT! I don't need 3 calls per circuit if you're the only one at the aerodrome with no inbound traffic and you're on a busy area CTAF or multicom.

 

Secondly and most guys do help here which is appreciated. Not giving way or room if you are not to sure about where you are or what sequence will work at an aerodrome, or you get a bit flustered when you hear that there is a C210 BE58 and C402 all inbound in the next 5 min. Now I know this isn't required but a bit of airmanship says that if you don't quite feel comfortable with the traffic to give a bit of space and carry on. Now this might mean as little as if departing, maintain A015 ect till the inbound have arrived rather then try to maintain separation by bearing and altitude or maybe extending upwind why the others do a 3nm final.

 

Small things like this would mean that while some guys have a lower standard then others, operationally it wouldn't be an issue. Hope that's comes across ok, still earLy here!

 

Oh and one more!!! Your ETA ISNT! In ten minuites, it's at time xx. Not hard to ad ten min to the current time and makes life a huge amount easier for the guys trying to manage 3 other aircraft on descent by not having to work out your ETA for you :)

 

 

[recflyer]

C'mon fellas!! Starting to sound like some sort of Professional Pilot R network..The reason I mentioned the power/drag curves is the OP was asking for things he could do to prepare and I believe that while understanding where ther aircraft is in its stage of flight is important and having a "feel" for it more so, I know myself that I didn't truley understand what was happening or, more importantly what was about to happen and the consequences of it being mis managed until I got my head around them. More power to go slower you say? Well that makes no sense sorta thing.

 

As far as standards go, Im happy to say that the "Private" flyers in general seem to be below standard to be dealing with busy RPT/Charter aerodromes. But so was I when I had 20hrs and a RA cert or 55hours and a PPL. Solution!? Scrap the RPL, PPL, and everyone has to do a 200hr CPL with a MECIR so as they have an understanding of the IFR guys.... That's clearly not going to happen and would cripple GA in the flight training sector so we need to deal with it. We are not all at the same standard on the roads either. (Unless you life in BRM then it's a fight for the bottom. )

 

The only thing that actually bugs me, well two things actually, in order and firstly. Radio calls, I never picked up that AIP till late in training to learn RX and each instructor passed on how he thought how it should be done and that only suited that aerodrome so when I hit the big bad world things were quite different. I don't expect a private guy to be able to recite the AIP but at least have an understanding of what calls are required and what are NOT! I don't need 3 calls per circuit if you're the only one at the aerodrome with no inbound traffic and you're on a busy area CTAF or multicom.

 

Secondly and most guys do help here which is appreciated. Not giving way or room if you are not to sure about where you are or what sequence will work at an aerodrome, or you get a bit flustered when you hear that there is a C210 BE58 and C402 all inbound in the next 5 min. Now I know this isn't required but a bit of airmanship says that if you don't quite feel comfortable with the traffic to give a bit of space and carry on. Now this might mean as little as if departing, maintain A015 ect till the inbound have arrived rather then try to maintain separation by bearing and altitude or maybe extending upwind why the others do a 3nm final.

 

Small things like this would mean that while some guys have a lower standard then others, operationally it wouldn't be an issue. Hope that's comes across ok, still earLy here!

 

Oh and one more!!! Your ETA ISNT! In ten minuites, it's at time xx. Not hard to ad ten min to the current time and makes life a huge amount easier for the guys trying to manage 3 other aircraft on descent by not having to work out your ETA for you :)

Great tips!