RPL recognition of Cross Country Endorsement

[rhysmcc]

They would have to train you on type, if someone had only flown say a Jab, they would then need to learn to fly a C172 possibly, not all that difficult but definitely different and would be a few hours at least and I would expect that an instructor would like to see the person comfortable and safe before they signed them off so could be more like 5 hours, it is reasonable for any instructor to expect a reasonably good standard of ability and airmanship before signing off.Most jab pilots would not have used mixture control or find it difficult to steer on ground as not direct, coupled by springs.

Yep, no different to if you learnt to fly a PA28 and then wanted to hire a c172, you need to show your able to fly that aircraft safely. That takes as many hours as required. What i'm saying is, the Nav and Flight radio isn't what the flight review is checking, it's flying the aircraft safely. However if CASA require an instructor to sign a form to gain the endorsement, no instructor in their right mind will do so without some form of training on that endorsement (i.e. a Nav Flight), that's not what the regs require.

 

 

[Camel]

The sign off should be a flight review, the same you get every 2 years as a BFR. At least that's what the regulations imply.

Then if you fly a Jab find a GA school with a Jab then it's simple like a BFR as said before find a school who does RAA and GA.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

it is not that simpleIf it was then every ones would be flying around under a ppl

 

if your nav skills are not good snuff then no instructor is going to sign you off

Deb that's the point I'm trying to make, as the regulations are written, you don't need an instructor to sign you off for the Nav Endorsement.

 

Then if you fly a Jab find a GA school with a Jab then it's simple like a BFR as said before find a school who does RAA and GA.

Exactly, although the school I fly with has C172's, so I'm expecting 5+ hours training to be checked off on those, I'm not expecting to do 100nm Nav's, as Nav endorsement is the same no matter of the aircraft. I've only been able to track down one GA school that has VH registered Jabs for training.

 

 

[Camel]

Deb that's the point I'm trying to make, as the regulations are written, you don't need an instructor to sign you off for the Nav Endorsement.

 

Exactly, although the school I fly with has C172's, so I'm expecting 5+ hours training to be checked off on those, I'm not expecting to do 100nm Nav's, as Nav endorsement is the same no matter of the aircraft. I've only been able to track down one GA school that has VH registered Jabs for training.

Read my post no 23 , there is a reference about instrument training to get nav endorsement.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Just had a read of the regs, I didn't recall the instrument time required. It's there so it's clear it's not able to transfer over from RA-AUS as you can't have conducted 2 hours dual instrument time.

 

(5) An applicant for a recreational navigation endorsement is eligible to be granted the endorsement if:

(a) regulation 61.480 applies to the applicant; and

 

(b) the applicant holds a cross‑country navigation approval from the recreational aviation administration organisation; and

 

© the applicant has completed the following flight time that complies with subregulation 61.495(3):

 

(i) at least 5 hours of solo cross‑country flight time;

 

(ii) at least 2 hours of dual instrument time, 1 hour of which is conducted during dual instrument flight time.

[facthunter]

You wouldn't have been able to do the instrument training that I had to do in an RAAus aircraft, and did with students in my time as instructor. You can't do it properly deb as you can't let the plane get far out of shape, legally.

 

The last serious look I had at this matter was where it was described as two paths to the RPL (Which is a restricted PPL). One was also through the RAAus Pilot certificate PATH. I don't read that as just automatic acceptance of it as equivalent. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

My English proficiency test was a 1 min convo with the CFI whilst filling out the forms, from memory if the CFI decides you meet level 6? No formal test required.

 

Also, what would be involved in adding a RPL to my license? Wouldn't mind the option of the lesser medical should I need it down the track (a possibility). Already hold a PPL/CPL can I just fill in the form? Or do I need to do it with my next BFF/check flight?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Personal opinion...nothing to do with RAAus Board!!!! (and when I write that I mean it! so stop emailing other board members suggesting anything I write is "the boards view!!!" Its nothing more or less than my current view with what I know or think at the time!!!

 

People

 

In this world if you partake of version 1.0 of anything...then life becomes complicated, and as a general rule you'll get "features" you weren't expecting, and fail to find the ones you were expecting...Cynical old pharts like me generally have enough life experience to know that tilting at windmills, especially ones made to be safe as possible, is generally the same as thrashing your hand about in 1/2 a bucket of water, pulling it out and looking to see if there was proof you were ever there....

 

Wait until version 1.1, or if especially cautious, or knowing that version upgrades will be rapidly produced to "show progress is being made" wait until 1.2.....

 

If you don't need RPL until the new year why bleed now? I mean we who wait thank you for taking one on the chin for us......but better you than me!

 

Pick your battles carefully! Pick only the ones that you know you can win and only the ones that will lead to what you want! Im unsure that RPL right now ticks either of those boxes....

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

Ben If you need a LESSER medical forget the RPL. IF there are any queries whatever about your condition, the applicant reverts to class2 or class 1. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

My English proficiency test was a 1 min convo with the CFI whilst filling out the forms, from memory if the CFI decides you meet level 6? No formal test required.Also, what would be involved in adding a RPL to my license? Wouldn't mind the option of the lesser medical should I need it down the track (a possibility). Already hold a PPL/CPL can I just fill in the form? Or do I need to do it with my next BFF/check flight?

Ben, the medical for a RPL is the same as a PPL. i.e. You can elect to do a class 2 or the GP type medical. So no use to you already holding a higher cat lic.

 

 

[ben87r]

Cheers Frank,

 

Was unaware you could do that, still restricted to <1500 and 1 pax?

 

 

[facthunter]

It isn't really Deb. It's done by a GP but you have to tick all boxes.Any query and you don't proceed. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

....as the regulations are written, you don't need an instructor to sign you off for the Nav Endorsement..

Not my interpretation of the regs. 61.500 just states that you are eligible to be granted the nav endorsement if etc etc. Apart from being eligible you also need to demonstrate competency and knowledge required by the Manual of Standards. So, prove to the instructor who is going to grant the endorsement that you are eligible per 61.495 and demonstrate each element listed on those three pages in the MOS.

[aro]

Apart from being eligible you also need to demonstrate competency and knowledge required by the Manual of Standards. So, prove to the instructor who is going to grant the endorsement that you are eligible per 61.495 and demonstrate each element listed on those three pages in the MOS.

I don't see where it says that, even if that is what some people would like. If you have to demonstrate the competency and knowledge in the MOS, in what way is it a "recognition of other qualifications"? What else would you have to do in addition to demonstrating "competency and knowledge required by the Manual of Standards" if you didn't have the other qualifications?

 

 

[coljones]

1. The Drivers Licence Medical is now called "Recreation Avioation Medical Practicioners Certificate" (RAMPC). It can also be used with licences other than RPL eg PPL but restricts holders to 1 Pax, <10,000 feet, Day VFR, <1,500Kg etc but if you have a safety pilot in a control seat you can do more.

 

2. In order to exercise the privileges of an RPL (PPL, CPL etc) you need to do a flight review which will generally cover all of the competencies, laid out in the MOS, of the licence and endorsements held or being sought. If you fail a FR or a BFR you will be grounded. RAC holders are exempt from written exams but are expected to be competent enough to fly the plane and demonstrate physically and/or verbally to the satisfaction an appropriate GA Instructor.

 

Andy is a bit generous. I think RPL is still in Beta. I'm not even sure that all of the CAS people have waded through the bumph and compared the glossies, with the forms, with Part 61, with the MOS.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Its all spelled out on the CASA site. (Does anyone ever actually go there before posting here?)

 

Its quite clear, a flight review is required.

 

Here:

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101585

 

"if an individual already holds a pilot certificate issued by a recreational aviation administration organisation or a GFPT, they will be able to exercise the privileges of a RPL after they have conducted a flight review."

 

Took me 30 seconds to find this info..

 

 

[aro]

"if an individual already holds a pilot certificate issued by a recreational aviation administration organisation or a GFPT, they will be able to exercise the privileges of a RPL after they have conducted a flight review."

Yes, a flight review is required before you can exercise the privileges . However, I don't think you can do a flight review for a license you don't hold, which implies that the license must first be granted, then you do the flight review.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ahhh. Yep . I get ya, yes it seems that's correct :)

 

 

[dazza 38]

I think initially , that the GFPT and RAA cert pilot holder, it was going to be a easy paper work shuffle then the RPL was issued. Then to exercise the privilege to use your RPL licence, a FLight review must be carried out.

 

The thing is, GFPT holders like me ( I also have a RAA cert with XC and TW ect) have to change over by a certain time. I have already passed a GFPT Test in a Piper Archer , so as far as I am concerned I have earn the right and proven that I can fly fly a 4 seater with multiple pax.( and the test was exactly the same as the old restricted PPL).

 

Now if they CASA , decide that after a certain point of time that my GFPT is now not recognised. THEY MUST ISSUE ME THE NEW RPL as it replaces my GFPT.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Mozart if only it was that simple.. You cant do your flight reveiw until you have an rpl issued...they wont issue the rpl without the medical and they certainly are not granting the nav endorsement as they stated they would in the guide...

 

 

[dazza 38]

I think initially , that the GFPT and RAA cert pilot holder, it was going to be a easy paper work shuffle then the RPL was issued. Then to exercise the privilege to use your RPL licence, a FLight review must be carried out.The thing is, GFPT holders like me ( I also have a RAA cert with XC and TW ect) have to change over by a certain time. I have already passed a GFPT Test in a Piper Archer , so as far as I am concerned I have earn the right and proven that I can fly fly a 4 seater with multiple pax.( and the test was exactly the same as the old restricted PPL).

Now if they CASA , decide that after a certain point of time that my GFPT is now not recognised. THEY MUST ISSUE ME THE NEW RPL as it replaces my GFPT.

Actually the knob jockies should be issuing it for free to existing GFPT holders. Since they are the ones who changed the rules.

I will say this, my GFPT test was more indept and included under the hood testing. So I agree that the RAA cert test is not the same as the GFPT, the RAA Test is easier.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hang on..The RPL also replaces the SPL? So what Licence are students solo'ing on?

 

 

[djpacro]

Actually the knob jockies should be issuing it for free to existing GFPT holders.

yep, you will get it for free. Then you need the English test and radio licence and .....

[motzartmerv]

Mozart if only it was that simple.. You cant do your flight reveiw until you have an rpl issued...they wont issue the rpl without the medical and they certainly are not granting the nav endorsement as they stated they would in the guide...

I can understand some of that. I would be hesitant to issue a Nav ticket to ANYBODy without a good look at him/ her, regardless of what endo's they have.

Purely from a currency point of view, nav skills go out the window quickly, and any GA school would want a good look at ANY nav endo before ticking boxes. What ever the intention was, the reality of it is such that no Instructor GA or RAA should be just signing stuff over.

 

I do the same when converting PPl holders to RAA. Its just par for the course im afraid.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hang on..The RPL also replaces the SPL? So what Licence are students solo'ing on?

Good point, it wasn't thought out very well.