CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[Roscoe]

Unfortunately, if this goes through you just bought a single seat aircraft that can't be used over populated areas which would mean you can't operate out of Bankstown.If made law - CASA has just written off the value of your aircraft along with every other aircraft with a Jabiru engine.

 

Myself and many others are in the same sinking boat as yourself.

Unfortunately, if this goes through you just bought a single seat aircraft that can't be used over populated areas which would mean you can't operate out of Bankstown.If made law - CASA has just written off the value of your aircraft along with every other aircraft with a Jabiru engine.

 

Myself and many others are in the same sinking boat as yourself.

I am currenty overseas and just reading all this with limited access to Internet. Has there been any mention of a date that this might come into effect at all?

 

 

[01rmb]

No proposed date at this stage for when it starts to apply- only comments by 20th November.

 

It is only proposed at this stage but I can't see them not doing something after making a big statement like this. Rod Stiff is to see them tomorrow with legal representatives to hopefully find some position where the actions are less draconian so there is some hope (although small) but people need to write to present their point of view to help achieve a better outcome.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . There are already some Jabs out there with factory installed Rotax engines, all 24 and legit (I believe one is based at Caboolture and is available for flight training).

I learned to fly on that J160 and cancelled a sol nav exercise the day before the 4th Jab engine died in the sky. I flew it again a few months later with the 100hp Rotax and it was bloody brilliant. Could only be done because it was type certified. Can't do that with an SLSA Jab like the 230 or 170 unless you are prepared to lose the 24 rego.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

is 'camit' .......... a jabiru engine ?

No.

 

 

[Powerin]

I wonder what the strict definition of "Jabiru powered" will be? It could be claimed, and Rod Stiff certainly makes the claim, that Jabiru engines that have been modified in any way are no longer Jabiru engines (eg fuel injection).

 

I agree this has been a long time coming, but I think it's a bit rich including experimental aircraft in the restrictions. There are all sorts of interesting engines flying, some with no proven safety records, from two strokes to auto conversions, in experimental aircraft and yet they are still allowed pax.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

And what about RAA-Aus Factory built models?

Yes, it includes all aircraft fitted with a jabiru engine, regardless of the type of registration.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

You have until 20th November (next Thursday) to get your objections or other comments in

 

 

DWF

That's a very unreasonable time frame for this very major issue that covers thousands of flyers. Some won't even hear of it until after this time.

 

 

[Roscoe]

Yes, it includes all aircraft fitted with a jabiru engine, regardless of the type of registration.

So, to replace it with a Rotex engine would solve the problem?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

That's a very unreasonable time frame for this very major issue that covers thousands of flyers. Some won't even hear of it until after this time.

I guess it's better then no notice or time to comment. At least students have a week to try finish their solo training. Hope Jabiru and CASA can reach an agreement before this come into force, but that means compromise on position which neither party is known for

 

 

[rhysmcc]

So, to replace it with a Rotex engine would solve the problem?

Yes, but there are complications in doing so

 

 

[Roscoe]

I learned to fly on that J160 and cancelled a sol nav exercise the day before the 4th Jab engine died in the sky. I flew it again a few months later with the 100hp Rotax and it was bloody brilliant. Could only be done because it was type certified. Can't do that with an SLSA Jab like the 230 or 170 unless you are prepared to lose the 24 rego.

Don hypothetically, if the Jab engine was replaced by a Rotax as you describe above, my Aircraft could still be operated in the 24 Category and problem solved if the proposal came into being??

 

 

[Roscoe]

Yes, but there are complications in doing so

Life wasnt meant to be easy!.....what sort of complications?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

It will be a class action, but be prepared to gain nothing, it would push the company staright under.

A firm like Slater & Gordon would only take on an expensive class action against Jabiru if they believed Jabiru (or its insurers) had deep pockets.

I would be amazed if there were deep pockets at Jabiru.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Life wasnt meant to be easy!.....what sort of complications?

There are more qualified people to answer, maybe give the Tech Manager a call when you get back to discuss. It couldn't be used for hire or reward, so no training and maybe moved to 19- class.

 

Interesting in the NEWS FLASH email, RAA are quoting 0.03% of jab movements have some reported engine trouble.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . It would have been great to have had RA-Aus as a lobby group but unfortunately they are the lead on this travesty against Jabiru owners, operators, training schools and pilots.

In my view somebody had to act. This will be hard on all the people you mention but hopefully only in the short term with a real positive outcome for the longer term for Jabiru and their customers.

 

RA-Aus and CASA were right to take this action to bring it to a head. Rod Stiff's response on FB gives a clue as to how cooperative a mood he's been in for the last 25 years. The time has come to make a quantum leap in the reliability of Jabiru engines because they are so widely used in FTFs.

 

CAMit have done a great deal of investigation and redesign and that is exactly what Jabiru should have been doing instead of blaming the maintainers and operators. A quick fix is available in the CAMit engine mods and could see a situation where this draft is NEVER brought into action.

 

And as others have said a Rotax firewall forward would not take long to get to market if Jabiru were prepared to look and see what has already been done.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

The email by RAA suggests they were not involved in this action by CASA and didn't even know about it before the rest of us, a separate issue but a worry none the less.

 

 

[robinsm]

Going to be a hell of a court case if it comes off. Got to feel sorry for the average man/woman who believes in supporting australian companies and purchased Jabiru. If the Camit engine is so good, how come jabiru branded ones are so bad. (if they are given the large amount of engines out there).. What percentage are we talking about. Fairly irresponsible to publish this without decisions being made. One way of spreading dissention and panic for no good rteason. All very well to say fit a rotax but who is going to be paying for that? Lets wait for all the facts before killing the fatted calf...

 

 

[DonRamsay]

based on what Don?doesnt the same 'person' build both types of engine ?

 

if u ignored this and crashed canu convince the judge that it is not a Jabaru engine?

For an LSA aircraft with a Special LSA Certificate of Airworthiness, like the J170 and J230, you can not change anything without the permission of the Factory.

 

For a type certified aircraft you can work with a CASA approved engineer to put a different engine in. Has been done with a Rotax into a J160 and I can't imagine it would be very hard to get a CAMit engine approved for a type certified J160.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

You'd rather they just come out with a ruling and not let people comment or provide advice?

 

As others have pointed out, not sure what Court case people think there will be. You can't sue (and win) CASA for making your aircraft and the public safe. You can't sue (and win money) a company that has folded and no longer exists. What we need is Jabiru and CASA to work together and come to a solution for all owners, pilots and the public on the ground.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Where has Ungermann been these last 3 years? Why hasn't he been talking to Rod & Co & working with Jab to resolve these issues. . . .

I can't say it for a fact but I believe that CASA has had serious concerns with Jabiru for more than 12 months and has been in discussions with them. I've also heard that RA-Aus gets a similar response from Jabiru as do most of their customers. This attitude is resplendent again in Jabiru's FB page - not our fault, others out to get us, sink the slipper into CASA.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Aren't you all forgetting something? Firstly, CAMit has to stay in business before it can provide the fixes. Its business, unfortunately, is building Jabiru engines to Jabiru's specifications. So if Jabiru stops selling engines, how do you imagine CAMit will be able to keep going? The baby will go out with the bathwater.

 

Secondly, to install a Rotax engine into a Jabiru airframe requires either a supplemental type certificate (for Jabs up to & including the 160C) - and it will require a separate engineering justification for each aircraft model; OR for the LSA models, it requires an equivalent amount of work by Jabiru in order to comply with the ASTM standard. If Jabiru is in convulsions as a result of this Instrument, who is going to (a) do the engineering work (which includes flight testing), and (b) Who is going to supply the up-front money?

 

Thirdly, why should Rod Stiff bother? You people seem to imagine you can get your way by waving a big stick. I think you are in for a significant object lesson. No doubt people will be very self-righteous about it. You make me nauseous. Clever country, eh?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Interesting in the NEWS FLASH email, RAA are quoting 0.03% of jab movements have some reported engine trouble.

Seems a bit odd that I reported that exact figure a month ago here ....

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/jabiru-thru-bolt-failure.125168/page-5#post-452707

 

 

[glenns]

I wonder if people realise this won't just spell the end of Jabiru it has the potential to bring down RAAus. If there are not enough flight schools and training aircraft what do you think will happen to the membership? If there is a sudden decline in membership what do we think will happen to the financial viability of RAAus?

 

 

[robinsm]

Aren't you all forgetting something? Firstly, CAMit has to stay in business before it can provide the fixes. It's business, unfortunately, is building Jabiru engines to Jabiru's specifications. So if Jabiru stops selling engines, how do you imagine CAMit will be able to keep going? The baby will go out with the bathwater.Secondly, to install a Rotax engine into a Jabiru airframe requires either a supplemental type certificate (for Jabs up to & including the 160C) - and it will require a separate engineering justification for each aircraft model; OR for the LSA models, it requires an equivalent amount of work by Jabiru in order to comply with the ASTM standard. If Jabiru is in convulsions as a result of this Instrument, who is going to (a) do the engineering work (which includes flight testing), and (b) Who is going to supply the up-front money?

 

Thirdly, why should Rod Stiff bother? You people seem to imagine you can get your way by waving a big stick. I think you are in for a significant object lesson. No doubt people will be very self-righteous about it. You make me nauseous. Clever country, eh?

The people in this country have given Mr Stiff the business he has today because they believed the publicity and bought his products.

 

 

[DWF]

 

SPECIAL NEWS ALERT

 

Aircraft fitted with Jabiru Engines

 

 

Members are advised of a consultative instrument issued by CASA today, regarding proposed restrictions for all aircraft powered by Jabiru engines.This document proposes to impose significant restrictions on RA-Aus members with approximately one third of all aircraft and more than two thirds of all flight training facilities being affected.

 

See http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_102279 for more information.

 

CASA has not previously notified RA-Aus of their intended actions, however, we acknowledge the engine failures associated with Jabiru power plants. It would appear the proposed actions by CASA are disproportionate to the risks faced by owners and operators. Of more than 90,000 Jabiru movements recorded by RA-Aus in the year to date approximately 0.03% have resulted in some form of engine malfunction with no fatalities being attributable to these events.

 

RA-Aus will be working with Jabiru and the regulator to discuss the operating limitations proposed by CASA and the detrimental impacts it may have on aircraft owners, flight training facilities and maintainers.

 

In the meantime if you are an owner or operator of a Jabiru aircraft or another aircraft with a Jabiru power plant we encourage you to contact CASA and express your views on their proposed actions.

 

RA-Aus is also supportive of members and businesses contacting their federal and local members of parliament and the Minister for Transport to convey their thoughts on any CASA imposed restrictions and detail any potential impacts of the actions. These may include, but are not limited to, any financial impacts or distress, loss of potential customers, any negative effects on employment, reputational damage, adverse impacts on regional Australia, etc.

 

The Minister for Transport, the Hon Warren Truss, can be contacted at [email protected] while your local federal member details can be found at www.aph.gov.au with state and local details available at the relevant government website.

 

Lee Ungermann of the SASAO office within CASA can be contacted at [email protected]

 

Please include [email protected] on all correspondence to CASA and members of parliament.