CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[gandalph]

Thanks Keith,

 

 

[gandalph]

The customer is always right. First rule of business.

If only that were true. Try that line on Ford, GM or any of the major insurance conglomerates and see how far you get.

 

The real first rule is to let the customer believe that you believe he is always right.

 

I think I'm safe bagging them, I don't think any of them are members of this site.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok so Maybe a little simplified, but I believe a big factor in why "some' customers are not happy. personally, yes ive had dealings that were less than satisfactory from a 'customer' standpoint.

 

I would love to be employed by Jab as a marketing advisor. I reckon I could double their sales in a few years.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

If you contact them and go ballistic it is not surprising you will get a frosty response. No organisation is perfect but when you get an ear full of negativity the helpfulness dissipates rapidly.

Nope, just a fact of life that a whole lot of your clients are people you wouldn't have as friends, it's the nature of and an intrinsic part of retail life. Try running a car repair workshop one day, do a head gasket for a bloke and get a bill the next day for the 2 flat tyres he got on the way home, laugh at it then receive your Court date a week later .....

 

If you can't deal with people being pricks on a daily basis then most certainly stay out of retail business.

 

The customer is always right. First rule of business.

Nope, but it pays to take time to talk to them to find out why they think they are right, that's a good start.

 

 

[deadstick]

Seems to me that CASA was made privy to the draft ATSB paper being put together on recreational engines reliability.

 

 

[glenns]

I have had my fair share if issues with Jabiru engines including through bolt and circlip problems as well as engines not making it to 1000 hours. Both my aircraft work in flying schools so they get a bashing. I have always been treated with the upmost professionalism and fairness By Jabiru. Maybe it's my approach. I work in the service management industry in my day job so know how to approach and solve an issue to the benefit of all parties

 

For instance where an engine only makes it to 800 hours I don't demand a new engine I simply negotiate around the 200 hours I didn't get.

 

Having said that for the last couple of years engines have been making the 1000 hours with no issues.

 

Having good maintenance via a good lame also helps so that maintenance issues are rectified before they develop.

 

I am not saying that there is not an issue that needs investigating. It's just the method and the fact that we need to hear all sides before we can make any judgements.

 

 

[bandit]

My apologies if the has already been posted (from Bundaberg News)

 

"

 

AFTER 40 engine failures in the past 12 months, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) has proposed to limit operations on Jabiru powered aircraft.

 

Under the consultation draft proposal CASA stated that all aircraft powered by engines manufactured by, or under licence from, Jabiru Aircraft Pty Ltd should be limited to day flights under the visual flight rule, unless approved by CASA, prohibit the carriage of passengers, prohibit the use of Jabiru powered aircraft for solo operations by student pilots and restrict flying over populace areas.

 

Jabiru production manager Jamie Cook said it disagreed with the draft proposal.

 

"They're not grounding the aircraft or engine but they are severely limiting the use of the aircraft," he said.

 

Mr Cook said CASA conducted a routine audit in July to ensure it was still complying with all the standards which it was.

 

"Then two weeks ago CASA advised us that it required an urgent audit which we agreed to," he said.

 

"Last week Jabiru was advised of this proposed instrument which it wanted Jabiru to self-impose and we disagreed and refused."

 

A spokesman for CASA said it had spoken to Jabiru about what needed to be done to fix the problem.

 

"While that process is being worked through we believe that we need to take steps to protect aviation safety," he said.

 

"It is still a consultation draft and until we make a decision Jabiru can operate normally."

 

 

[Guest john]

If the Proprietors & Managers of both Jabiru Aircraft & Camit have been reading the items under this heading on this forum throughout this weekend, which have been both constructive & beneficial, common sense should have kicked in & pricked both of their consiences to put aside political & personal differences & reminded them that immediate remedial action is required on both parties to eat "humble pie" as a result of the serious wake up call that CASA have given Jabiru Aircraft last week, & furthermore that both of these Companies (which are both good genuine Aussie Companies) should commence immediate negotiations to establish a COMMERCIAL JOINT VENTURE between themselves as soon as possible for not only the financial future stability of both Companies, but also to preserve the long term future of all Jabiru aircraft throughout the world. If these 2 Companies decide not to come together for whatever reason to form a Joint Venture & if Jabiru Aircraft does not comply with CASA demands then one can expect CASA will act accordingly.

 

Many people will have already forgotten what CASA did with Ansett ANA a few years ago.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If only that were true. Try that line on Ford, GM or any of the major insurance conglomerates and see how far you get.The real first rule is to let the customer believe that you believe he is always right.

I think I'm safe bagging them, I don't think any of them are members of this site.

You'd be surprised who's a member of this site gandalph.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Many people will have already forgotten what CASA did with Ansett ANA a few years ago.

 

McCormick's parting gesture perhaps?

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil, I believe Jab sales in the US reached their natural limit when the number of slim Americans available to buy them had been reached.rgmwa

Can't argue with that !

 

 

[bexrbetter]

From Ron Wanttaja ( http://wanttaja.com/ )

 

I've got a database of US homebuilt accidents from 1998 through 2012. Most accidents include the type of engine installed.

 

We have no way to tell how many of a particular type of engine is installed in US Experimental aircraft. The FAA registration database includes an engine column, but thousands of homebuilts don't specify an aircraft type.

 

What we CAN do is determine what percentage of accidents affecting aircraft with a given type of engine were caused by problems with the engine. The larger the percentage, the higher the likelihood that the engine is having difficulties...either due to design issues or the difficulty in properly installing or operating the engine.

 

Here's the percentages:

 

Continental Engines: 18%

 

Lycoming Engines: 16%

 

Auto-Engine Conversions (including VW): 38%

 

Jabiru: 22%

 

Rotax (all): 28%

 

Rotax 912: 12%

 

Ron Wanttaja

 

 

[kgwilson]

My apologies if the has already been posted (from Bundaberg News)"

AFTER 40 engine failures in the past 12 months, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) has proposed to limit operations on Jabiru powered aircraft.

 

Under the consultation draft proposal CASA stated that all aircraft powered by engines manufactured by, or under licence from, Jabiru Aircraft Pty Ltd should be limited to day flights under the visual flight rule, unless approved by CASA, prohibit the carriage of passengers, prohibit the use of Jabiru powered aircraft for solo operations by student pilots and restrict flying over populace areas.

 

Jabiru production manager Jamie Cook said it disagreed with the draft proposal.

 

"They're not grounding the aircraft or engine but they are severely limiting the use of the aircraft," he said.

 

Mr Cook said CASA conducted a routine audit in July to ensure it was still complying with all the standards which it was.

 

"Then two weeks ago CASA advised us that it required an urgent audit which we agreed to," he said.

 

"Last week Jabiru was advised of this proposed instrument which it wanted Jabiru to self-impose and we disagreed and refused."

 

A spokesman for CASA said it had spoken to Jabiru about what needed to be done to fix the problem.

 

"While that process is being worked through we believe that we need to take steps to protect aviation safety," he said.

 

"It is still a consultation draft and until we make a decision Jabiru can operate normally."

Ra-Aus says 0.03% of 90,000 movements, partial and total failures including at least 1 caused by running out of fuel which totals 27, then it becomes 28 & it was noted somewhere else it is 29, now it is 40 failures from the local press. By mid week it should be at least 200 based on the exponential creep underway.

 

 

[Powerin]

Again, I don't agree with how CASA has handled this, but the idea that this came out of the blue for Jabiru doesn't ring true. The statement from Jabiru after their meeting with CASA seems to indicate that the meeting was already scheduled BEFORE this proposed instrument came out. When CASA took Tiger Airways to the cleaners other airlines such as Jetstar also had serious airspace infractions recorded against them, but Tiger were the ones who snubbed their noses at CASA (or so I heard). Given the original rhetoric from Rod Stiff when this hit the fan and from his past performances it seems just as likely that CASA felt the need to wave a big stick to get some action at the meeting.

 

The opinion that CASA has done this with no evidence also seems misplaced. The media seems to have asked the question and got the answer of 40 failures in 12 months.

 

I try to keep an open mind, but have had concerns about Jab engines purely as someone looking from the outside at statistics and anecdotal evidence from various sources - both good and bad. Surely though, even for the most ardent Jabiru supporter, 40 failures (if that figure is correct) in only 12 months, in a fleet of under 1100, is cause for some concern? In this age of globalisation and the demise of Aussie manufacturing, Aussie companies have to do things smarter and better. I'm sorry, but they do not deserve support simply by virtue of being an Australian manufacturer. Take it from a humble Aussie farmer, my hip pocket wins or loses by virtue of global demand and how well my product fits into that demand.

 

As for a joint venture between CAMit and Jabiru...one would have thought that the fact that CAMit manufacturers engines for Jab means they have a fairly close venture already. For CAMit, however, the case for pursuing a closer relationship with Jab would have to make business sense. By all accounts CAMit have put a lot of time, testing and money into improving the original design. Jabiru, apparently, have not. If I were CAMit I would not be giving up the rights to a new and improved engine for nothing. I will admit, however, it wouldn't be the first time a company was ridden into the ground for the sake of pride. If there is one thing I have learnt in my journey to flying, it's that pride and ego are alive and well in aviation .

 

Having said all that, there is a valid case for the lack of fatalities. Perhaps the combination of a great airframe with a not so great engine is enough to mitigate the risk. You've got to admit that if Jab DO get the engine right, at a price that's not too much more, they would have a world class product.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Could the 40 include the GA failures? Aren't the 27 that we have just the RAA numbers?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Could the 40 include the GA failures? Aren't the 27 that we have just the RAA numbers?

Pretty serious for the newspaper if they got that wrong, you would think they were solid sources to protect them from libel.

 

 

[ozbear]

you cant force either of them to eat humble pie it is not that simple$$$$$$$$

 

a bloke turned upat my airport today and after a chat turned out he was ordering a j230 this week even thou he know s of all this

Well he would be in a good bargaining position right now If a good 230 came along at the right price I would still buy it .Its an ill wind that doesn't blow some good.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Could be a golden opportunity here at the moment for someone to buy out both Jabiru and Camit, that could get the two working together.

 

Cheers Geoff13

 

 

[dutchroll]

And just who do you think you are kidding... That perception has been perpetrated for too long by 'consumers' but as business owners know is far from reality.

I think there's a half-truth in either side of that argument. Businesses have to be responsive to customer demands and wishes, or they'll go under. Of course this doesn't mean the customer is technically "right" - just that the customer will ultimately drive the direction of the business.

In the Jabiru case though, I think they're going to have a tough time given the available stats trying to convince everyone they've responded appropriately. It certainly doesn't seem that way.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

And just who do you think you are kidding... That perception has been perpetrated for too long by 'consumers' but as business owners know is far from reality.

I think anyone who responds to this statement 'literally' doesnt understand the premise.

 

 

[Teckair]

a bloke turned upat my airport today and after a chat turned out he was ordering a j230 this week even thou he know s of all this

And there lies the problem, if people buy them, knowing the issues then it is their own fault and what incentive has the factory got to change anything?

 

 

[Downunder]

Could be a golden opportunity here at the moment for someone to buy out both Jabiru and Camit, that could get the two working together.Cheers Geoff13

I recon Rod would rather "go down with the ship".

 

 

[Guest john]

I recon Rod would rather "go down with the ship".

The old Latin Proverb is never so truer as "LET THE BUYER BEWARE'

 

 

[jetjr]

Customer always right and strong consumer laws here is why everything in Aus is expensive

 

Importer or retailer carry heavy risk burden inc consequential claims.

 

Sad but many customers stretch rights and expectations. If businesses didnt draw a line they wouldnt be in business long. At some point a customer is never going to be happy and will continue to cost. How well this is managed is the key of customer service.

 

Unfortunately also Id say an aircraft goes outside normal consumer protection.

 

You are covered under $40K, or over $40K if its for personal or household use

 

There are some overriding concepts too like fit for purpose but thats a long debate.

 

An issue noted here is market is still buying aircraft, and has done for some years, market forces maybe not impacting as much as they might. Looking positively this shows what a solid aircraft they could be.

 

 

[jetjr]

Where did the other thread go?

 

Despite bickering there was some good stuff in there