Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I don't believe for one moment that the CAMit parts are in any way inferior to the originals and generally reflect a serious attempt to upgrade and improve quality and therefore reliability of the total package. The CASA action may frustrate that outcome, which would be a pity punitive and wasteful. Certainly I'm amazed that non training aircraft are included in the restrictions. The total aircraft package has proven safe by comparison with anything out there, so putting all the training into some other brands won't statistically improve things . The aim should be to improve the product powerplant -wise, and expedite anything that helps that process.I generally support the M Monk document. Nev They could hardly be inferior, since CAMit make the originals - apart from outsourced parts.
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 In the pre-war days, British engineers tended to be "practical chaps" not contaminated with the likes of university engineering learning. That's why a Spitfire took 14000 man hours to build vs 6000 for an Me109. The Merlin was designed by practical chaps at Rolls-Royce. Their development path was to thrash it until something broke. Then they looked at the wreck, beefed up the broken bit and did it all again. Then it went into service ... from the Wikipedia page ...Initially the new engine was plagued with problems, such as failure of the accessory gear trains and coolant jackets, and several different construction methods were tried before the basic design of the Merlin was set.[14] Early production Merlins were also unreliable: Common problems were cylinder head cracking, coolant leaks, and excessive wear to the camshafts and crankshaftmain bearings.[15] The cheerful bit is that it ended up as a pretty good engine. Does this seem familiar? Do the factory people have what it takes to sort the problems faced by owners of Jabiru engines? You forget that the British industry was working on Government contracts - and there was a war looming. Jabiru has neither of these minor circumstances to help it. 1
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 You forget that the British industry was working on Government contracts - and there was a war looming. Jabiru has neither of these minor circumstances to help it. Yes your correct ...there was no hurry, they had all the time in the world and neglected to do the proper testing...........
Old Koreelah Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Looks like religion and politics aren't nearly as interesting as the Jab Engine debate; nearly 1,000 posts already!
robinsm Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 religion and politics dont have half the interest of this thread. Jab engines and Casa tend to cost a lot of money if they go wrong. (as do other engines of course). Hip pocket equals interest. 1
01rmb Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 https://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/RA-Aus-Submission-to-CASA-re-Jabiru-Proposal-dated-21-Nov-2014.pdfWell worth a read..sorry if this is posted elsewhere.... Interesting that CASa asked what the data meant after already publishing the instrument... Michael Monck - thank you. The letter from RA-Aus by Michael shows that RA-Aus is trying to act as an appropriate agent within the recreational aviation industry - to both encourage improvement from manufacturers as well as lobby for improvements to the regulator. My criticism early in this mess may only apply to certain antagonists on the board.
bexrbetter Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 OK Bex. The time is ripe for you to release your certified, drop in replacement for the Jab motor. I'm closer than some might have you believe but I'll take my time and do it properly. Also I've mentioned previously that the Rotax 9 series is my target and I think that I might not have much impact on those who prefer a direct drive, aircooled engine - because they are simpler and far more reliable ...... Here's a read about TVs, may not be Jab related but I'm thinking it is, interesting read anyway ... http://enginehistory.org/NoShortDays/TV.pdf 1
facthunter Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Anytime I've mentioned that approach it has always been prefaced by "ALL other things being equal", the simplest is best. My statements are usually qualified carefully and shouldn't in all fairness and honesty be taken out of context..Nev
Guest Ornis Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 While I, and I am sure many others, are pleased CAMit are taking positive measures to make improvements, there is certainly not enough feedback yet, and that can only come with time, to assert if those improvements hold the answers or not to the issues. I see. So if company J responds to valve recession and head embedment with a change to poorly engineered hydraulic lifters in order to disguise the problem (but introduces many new ones), and company C improves the alloy quality and so on in an attempt to mitigate the problem, we must wait an indefinite period (Edited - Mod) There would be no independent and informed person on this Earth who would honestly believe Jabiru engines are anything but a crash waiting to happen. The fact that people are not dying just shows the nature of statistics, the level of pilot skill - which is why CASA is right to restrict ab initio training, and the robust structure of Jabiru aircraft - which is not the argument. What we are witnessing here is the ability of people to "soldier on" by denial.
turboplanner Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Michael Monck - thank you.The letter from RA-Aus by Michael shows that RA-Aus is trying to act as an appropriate agent within the recreational aviation industry - to both encourage improvement from manufacturers as well as lobby for improvements to the regulator. My criticism early in this mess may only apply to certain antagonists on the board. http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/t...harged-with-manslaughter-20140903-10brau.html
Camel Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 While I, and I am sure many others, are pleased CAMit are taking positive measures to make improvements, there is certainly not enough feedback yet, and that can only come with time, to assert if those improvements hold the answers or not to the issues. Is Jabiru working with Camit ? Gossip I heard did not indicate this, sounded like the same head in the sand method from Jabiru ! The survey they sent to flying schools looks like a way out also ! I find it hard to be optimistic with CASA trying to destroy Australian aircraft manufacture with no regard for anyone and Jabiru with it is someone else's fault not ours now let's put our head back in the sand ! I do not hold my hopes very high for Jabiru to act appropriately after the responsonse to RAA bulletin about cylinder base cracks. More interest in hours than cracks, in fact it just says cracks pose no threat ! Quote. "This investigation also revealed that the cylinder heads on the engine with the cylinder head cracks sent to us had done 2,302.4 hours TTIS and 1,244.9 hours since the previous Top End Overhaul. The hours were done in a period of 2 years 4 months. There appeared to be confusion regarding the correct method of recording engine time in the maintenance log book. Jabiru requires that Hobbs Time be the sole method by which engine time is recorded. The problem with proper recording of engine time has prompted us to release the attached Service Letter (JSL010-1) regarding Service Intervals which clarifies your obligations concerning maintenance records. " After the CFI conference I thought everything will be fine and RAA has a bright future a couple of hours later I want to walk away and forget aviation totally. It is just not worth the agony from a bunch of ignorant fools !
gandalph Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Yes your correct ...there was no hurry, they had all the time in the world and neglected to do the proper testing........... I respectfully request that Ross offer some substantiated proof of his allegation. (edited - Mod) 1 1
gandalph Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/t...harged-with-manslaughter-20140903-10brau.html I wonder why you are still trailing this one through this thread Turbs? Hardly relevant to issues at hand. A very tenuous link indeed. 2
jetjr Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 There are thousands who don't think Jabs are dangerous, they bought them. I thought unuseful posts were to be deleted. Someone who joins just to bag Jabiru probably isnt welcome Re the survey Disappointing to hear but wouldnt it depend what they are trying to find out. Far more useful to see what those running to TBO are doing. I dont belive there is anything they, casa or even religeous powers could do to make you satisfied. so why bother. If they are trying to find out practices used by FTF SUCCESSFULLY using Jabirus, then its a waste of time talking to you. They can read it all here about the issues and how its their fault. Maybe they are trying to find what works not what doesnt? Anyway feel free to stick the knife on to them, i mean us, ... being other members and owners. ........ The bloods flowing from earlier damage why stop now. 1 1
Guest Ornis Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 By all means contribute to the forums by keeping your comments informative and constructive. Those quoted above are neither of these. Okay. I'll be constructive. CASA is right on the money.
turboplanner Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I wonder why you are still trailing this one through this thread Turbs? Hardly relevant to issues at hand. A very tenuous link indeed. I wonder why you are still trailing this one through this thread Turbs? Hardly relevant to issues at hand. A very tenuous link indeed. Forget the boat, join the dots, never mind the shemale
Old Koreelah Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Michael Monck - thank you.The letter from RA-Aus by Michael shows that RA-Aus is trying to act as an appropriate agent within the recreational aviation industry -... I totally agree. I'm very impressed with his letter. If the Old Guard had still been running the show what would they have done? How fortunate we are to have the current executive. 6 1
turboplanner Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 If you're going to get excited by sabre rattling, bets to make sure the sabres are pointing at the enemy.
01rmb Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 If you're going to get excited by sabre rattling, bets to make sure the sabres are pointing at the enemy. In times of crisis you need to prioritise the battles you fight - be sure to stop the attack the enemy on your door step that will kill everyone before worrying about the smaller skirmishes. RA-Aus needs to stop CASA from destroying the whole industry first before working with Jabiru to improve their engines with better analysis of failures and identification of the root cause of the problem. Remember the problem is not that Rotax are perfect and Jabiru fail every flight - Jabiru are just not as good as Rotax and will fail more often - not great but the failure rate is still only 1 in 3,300 flights. It says Rotax are much better than Jabiru and there is room to improve. If Rotax did not exist then Jabiru would be as good as the other engines being used in light sport recreational aircraft. 2 1 1
facthunter Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Attention to detail is not a big feature of many of the posts here. Head cracks in Aluminium finning are a lot different from cylinder cracks at the base of an alloy steel component. The head crack in that location, has no effect on the operation of the motor. It's merely a fin that is machined too thin when the deck for a small bolt is formed and cracks a weakened fin after a lot of heat cycles. I actually predicted that when the matter came up and our man required the aircraft not be flown. OK being careful is a good thing, you can say. Being correct is good too. Cracks in a critical area like the base of a highly stressed part like a cylinder are a no no, even for a flight over the hill, to get it in the hangar. It's not unusual in many makes of engine. Most of the problem in that area for Jabiru has been with nuts that don't fit the radius formed there, and distort the cylinder, and would put load on the studs too. Those who agree with the CASA directive in the current form are stating they will be OK with the consequences, if they have given it serious consideration. If they haven't given it serious consideration they really cannot be worried about what happens to the RAAus and other users of Jabiru engines as well as the manufacturers who have a lot to lose.. The CASA unfortunately have a bit of form where they occasionally go heavy and put operators in an impossible position. There has to be a way out of this that is workable. That is the stand I'm making. If it was a control problem or aircraft structure it would be more urgent. WE do find ourselves in an extremely difficult situation here, where obviously some thing(s) must change. I'm not saying everything is OK and do nothing. There MUST be some checks that could be recommended for the present and develop the means of identifying ongoing problems. That being the first step to rectification. It is still a fact that some operators are going fine. Why not check why this is so? Nev . 2
Bruce Tuncks Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Interesting story about the Merlin, thanks Ian. But they had unlimited money and man-hours. The ME 109 was likewise adjusted by trial and error. After an "upgrade" which increased the weight and speed, it started shedding wings ( killing a few pilots in the process) so they beefed up the structure a bit. Jabiru don't operate in the same enviroment huh? Right now, they are in trouble from people who are demanding a cheap and light air-cooled engine which is immune from the effects of detonation. I think they are asking for the impossible. But while people are organizing some impossible things, could I put in my order for some smart pills and some young pills. I would like to be young and smart. 2
facthunter Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 WE need a tube of wisdom too while we are at it. Nev 1
facthunter Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 It was less than that at times. Military engines are sacrificial.. Most that were adapted for civilian use were derated and gradually improved in a few obvious areas, mostly related to engine management techniques of the human kind. Nev
turboplanner Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 You're not even talking about the same subject 01
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