CASA - Draft Proposal for Jabiru Aircraft

[DrZoos]

Its horrible to think this way but, its worth commenting on... while Jabirus just became pretty much worthless overnight or possibly worth very little, the rest of the fleet just got boosted in value immensley... assuming 50% plus of aircraft for sale are Jabs we now have all buyers competing for half as many non Jabs...it will be interesting to watch the Members market and see how quickly the non Jabs start selling... this might actually provide a great selling moment in time for non Jab owners... just like the share market one persons doom is anothers boom, unfortuantely. You might want to review your asking price if your selling a Rotax aircaft or at least see how it plays out before selling one too cheap..

 

Couple that witht he fact imported aircraft have got more expensive due to AUD and the 2nd hand Rotax powerd market surely just got a reasonable sugar hit for a while at least...

 

In saying that i have writtent my letter to Warren Truss , my member and CASA expressing my disgust at how this has been handled and on what basis it was ever decide... Its no secret it think Jabiru have blamed too many failures on users, but I also think this is a ridiculous way of dealing with it..

 

Of serious concern was that CASA issued the directive less then 24 hours after obtaining the data from RAA and then later asked for the data to be explained... one seriously wonders is this a safety concern based on facts or a witch hunt to take out Jabiru , destroy RAA and then sweep up its 10000 pilots under CASA control..

 

 

[RKW]

Thanks for those words of comfort there Dr.

 

 

[facthunter]

Zoos your projection may omit a critical factor. Those who have had enough won't cop a big loss and then buy another aircraft. They won't have the enthusiasm or the money.. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

So you think owners who just lost their aircraft investment money are able/willing to stump up another sum maybe double what they lost?

 

What about when CASA decide Tecnam have structural problems or Sportstar have control problems and ground them too. More justified than current action IMO

 

Seems gyros, trikes and 2 strokes are more of a problem AND have a stronger data pack to support that

 

Whats left

 

Just Maj and his Savannah

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hi

 

How many engines sell for 10 years without improvement or upgrade parts even automotive? Do you see anyone sending out free upgrade every 24 months when a new model is released.Im a bit lost Merv, your now criticising jabiru for making engines safer?? A stuck valve, with these new pistons, should be fairly uneventful.

I think a fault is in the marketing of LSA being somehow the same as a factory built certified aircraft "just like a half price Cessna"

 

They arent, never were and never will be, but many of us are owners whereas i never could afford the capital or maintenance on a 10 year old 172

 

I spend as much time making sure my english and spelling mistakes are corrected as posting, almost not worth the effort.

Hi Jet,. . . . .

 

Whilst I am not au fait with the technical workings or otherwise of the Jabiru engine family,. . . I am indeed fascinated by the discussion. However, I have to say that I don't feel that your final comment inferring that some members pehaps do not always use "surgically correct" English language, either spelt or otherwise was really warranted.

 

Other posters may not have a degree in English Grammar as do you or I; and this comment could only serve to detract from the subject value and or point which various posters are attempting to make.

 

No offence meant, . . .just a thought. ( I probably read that post incorrectly, I'm sure you were not actually making fun of anyone at all. )

 

Merry Christmas.

 

Phil

 

 

[jetjr]

Australian website , we speak australian and its dialects

 

Many are more interested in comment and intention rather than spelling and grammar

 

 

[Butch]

So you think owners who just lost their aircraft investment money are able/willing to stump up another sum maybe double what they lost?Your kidding yourself

What about when CASA decide Tecnam have structural problems or Sportstar have control problems and ground them too. More justified than current action IMO

 

Seems gyros, trikes and 2 strokes are more of a problem AND have a stronger data pack to support that

 

Whats left

 

Just Maj and his Savannah

HI

 

I know this is off topic but what Tecnam structural problems, I'm interested as I fly one ?

 

cheer's Butch

 

 

[DrZoos]

Who up jetr i think you have mis interpreted me completely

 

Not suggesting anything other then simple market dynamics... and that people affected may want to consider how this will affect the markets

 

Less buyers and less reasons to buy equals lower prices...

 

Same amount of buyers and only half the planes offering the requirements (dual / solo / populated area flight) = sustained or higher prices for those planes

 

New planes at higher prices supports used plane values...

 

Im not saying its desirable, just pointing out that it does offer a point in time for certain people to make a shift and use the market dynamics to their advantage or stop the market smashing them with a disadvantage... eg: any flight school wanting to continue operating and going to buy a rotax to do so, may want to consider moving earlier rather then later as its bound to cause a temporary reduction in choice of aircraft and availability etc etc..

 

I dont for a moment think Jab buyers will be running around chasing rotax aircraft to replace thier jabs...most will probably stick a for sale sign on it and leave the sport in disgust

 

But new entrants wont be lining up for Jabs , thye will be chasing the rotaxs and that will temporarily lift the prices or dry up supply of good 2nd hand rotax powered RAA aircraft...

 

My point is simple...dont ignore the effect this will have on aircraft values, which will be significant , upside for half the fleet, downside for the rest... its terrible, its horrible, its wrong, but its here and we know have to deal with it...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

So you think owners who just lost their aircraft investment money are able/willing to stump up another sum maybe double what they lost?What about when CASA decide Tecnam have structural problems or Sportstar have control problems and ground them too. More justified than current action IMO

Seems gyros, trikes and 2 strokes are more of a problem AND have a stronger data pack to support that

 

Whats left

 

Just Maj and his Savannah

Lightwing 912 GR there Jetjr ...although I do fly Savannahs often and find them also very reliable and enjoyable to fly........

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

There was a Tecnam that entered cloud and came out in bits. It happened at Rowland Flat near Gawler.

 

There was another Tecnam , this one at Gawler, which had an accidental retract while being pushed out of its hangar. It wrote off a wing, while a Jabiru which had a similar event emerged unscathed

 

I don't think that Tecnams have a structural problem, but tin is not tough like fibreglass. So don't worry Butch, Jetjr was just pointing out how unjust criticisms are easy to make. BUT don't overstress that Tecnam either and don't crease those tin wings.

 

 

[2tonne]

At Lilydale this morning was told the three J160 trainers have done a combined 15,000 hours with one engine failure. So, I still think the risk of having an engine failure while solo is low. Beat the odds this morning with a couple of solo circuits:cheezy grin:

 

 

[nomadpete]

I think that CASA are still working in their old 'ignorant bully' mode. Just as was identified in the goverment's own Forsyth Aviation Safety Review.

 

I wish they would stop penalising the Jab users. I think CASA really should just focus on bullying Jab into some quality control and honest, meaningful statistics and R&D so the product can be sorted out.

 

So far there has been a poorly arranged knee-jerk reaction based solely on skewed statistics and anecdotal stories.

 

 

[Teckair]

then sweep up its 10000 pilots under CASA control..

I don't think they want that.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So far there has been a poorly arranged knee-jerk reaction based solely on skewed statistics and anecdotal stories.

I wouldn't think RAA ould do that. Maybe they could share their original communication so you could see for yourselves.

 

Certainly the statistics published monthly in the magazine are clear about the forced landings, but no one can gauge accurately the additional ones that are not reported

 

 

[Butch]

There was a Tecnam that entered cloud and came out in bits. It happened at Rowland Flat near Gawler.There was another Tecnam , this one at Gawler, which had an accidental retract while being pushed out of its hangar. It wrote off a wing, while a Jabiru which had a similar event emerged unscathed

I don't think that Tecnams have a structural problem, but tin is not tough like fibreglass. So don't worry Butch, Jetjr was just pointing out how unjust criticisms are easy to make. BUT don't overstress that Tecnam either and don't crease those tin wings.

Thanks Bruce for your explanation, I always thought Tecnams had a fairly good reputation as far as safety goes.

 

Nothings bullet proof, we all know the risks when we fly.

 

Hope all this issue with the Jabs get sorted out for you guys , They seem to be an affordable well constructed aircraft with a few engine problems ( no experience just what I read on this forum ) and it would be bad for all of us in RAA to see them grounded or put under severe restrictions, we all just want to fly safely,

 

cheers Butch

 

 

[nomadpete]

I doubt that RAAus has accurate forensic information on all REPORTED engine failures. At least, the mag only gives scant info. For instance, in a thru bolt failure, do they know which particular bolt/s failed? Were the bolts seated properly? Did anyone inspect threads for stress raisers? What was the state of combustion chambers? What about all other moving parts? Who did an analysis of fuel or oil?

 

Without honest specific info, the reports are not going to help solve problems. All we do get is distressed operators.

 

Just on the subject of fuel (and a lot of folk have concerns), in the past, I sent an email to Tech Manager asking if RAAus could please find a lab that would analyse my fuel samples. I got no answer, but that was in the bad old days. Does anyone here know of a lab?

 

 

[facthunter]

My son has an old black one. We "lab" test a lot of things with him.

 

On a serious note Vev on the forum, is involved with all that fuel and oil stuff.. He hasn't been posting much lately.Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I doubt that RAAus has accurate forensic information on all REPORTED engine failures. At least, the mag only gives scant info. For instance, in a thru bolt failure, do they know which particular bolt/s failed? Were the bolts seated properly? Did anyone inspect threads for stress raisers? What was the state of combustion chambers? What about all other moving parts? Who did an analysis of fuel or oil?Without honest specific info, the reports are not going to help solve problems. All we do get is distressed operators.

Just on the subject of fuel (and a lot of folk have concerns), in the past, I sent an email to Tech Manager asking if RAAus could please find a lab that would analyse my fuel samples. I got no answer, but that was in the bad old days. Does anyone here know of a lab?

Nomadpete...Although it would be nice if the situation were different, however the RAAus does not have the time or resources to elaborate more in detail on the actual causes on individual equipment failurers. I'm sure you would easily appreciate the scope of work involved to make that happen over many different levels of equipment. We now have the accident and incident reports posted in a timely manner on the website thanks to the work of the ops team and Katie Jenkins the Safety officer. We didn't have that info before. However specific equipment failure modes are best handled by the equipment manufacturers themselves ( if and when they recieve failure reports) and they then should convey the findings directly to their customers.

 

 

[facthunter]

I couldn't expect we would have the resources for that, either. Over time maybe we could compile a list of information sources that might handle these sorts of things. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I see. So if company J responds to valve recession and head embedment with a change to poorly engineered hydraulic lifters in order to disguise the problem (but introduces many new ones), and company C improves the alloy quality and so on in an attempt to mitigate the problem, we must wait an indefinite period

Not relevant, I never even mentioned Jabiru's engines.

 

All I said was CAMit's "improvements" are unproven and that only time can tell. I also mentioned I am pleased they are trying to improve matters.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Jabiru are just not as good as Rotax and will fail more often - not great but the failure rate is still only 1 in 3,300 flights. It says Rotax are much better than Jabiru and there is room to improve. If Rotax did not exist then Jabiru would be as good as the other engines being used in light sport recreational aircraft.

Nobody has confirmed for sure that the statistics aren't saying Jabiru isn't as reliable as Rotax 2 and 4 strokes combined, which is a signifiantly more concerning statistic for our local 4 stroke offering.

 

 

[Yenn]

Does Camit actually sell Camit engines? If they do, I certainly havn't ever seen an ad. for one. I was under the impression that they built jab engines.

 

What started this whole shemozzle of anyway. I thought that RAAus out the information before CASA. If that is correct then why is CASA being abused for doing what it has?

 

For a long while we have been fed stories of Jab engine failures and told that nobody is doing anything about it so the heavens will fall in. Now RAAus has done something and it is CASAs fault. The real fault is that nobody is told exactly what the failures are or what their causes are.

 

 

[acro]

For those that want to know, Moderators do not have access to PMs. Naturally I do have access because they are in the database the same as posts and everything else because everything has to be stored somewhere for you to access it on your screen. Having said that the only time I would need to spend the time and trouble to log in to the server and go to the actual PM table in the database would be if someone is causing trouble like spamming other users etc. It might frighten you to know that many many people in IT have access to everything you do from the moment you turn your computer on. When you send an email many people can access it however IT people that have access to anything like this must have some degree of responsibility. I once worked in a position where I could access every single thing about every single person who worked in Victoria. There is a rule when working in these types of positions.Also note that the only moderation that is done is when someone breaks the site rules which seems to happen a lot in these types of threads like calling another site user "an idiot" or saying "you are stupid" etc etc etc. I don't care who you are but the mods have to uphold the site rules and edit any posts that are made like this. If you want to call someone else an idiot or say they are stupid then go and do it elsewhere because no one likes, and even deserves not to be, attacked in any way by someone else behind a keyboard. It is so easy and simple to be decent to each other because we are all in this together

 

Simple, Rule 2.5 says:

 

"Posts which can be considered rude, unfriendly, angered, ill-mannered, inappropriate, uncalled-for, gratuitous, disturbing, un-respectful, unjust by other site members or site administration are not to be posted."

why not just write a webapp to pull the tables/columns? easy enough, select * from where user_id =

 

 

[jetjr]

A problem with self reporting is that pissed off owner has to fill out the report and submit it

 

Pretty good environment for painting biased view

 

Tie in the insurance aspect and that clims may not be paid

 

Never read,

 

LAME dcided to have a crack at Jab maintenance, engine then failed

 

couldnt be bothered doing throughbolt upgrade then it failed

 

Plane was full of old mogas and through bolt broke

 

Landing in wind and screwed it up

 

Engine stopped and i have no idea what temps were

 

Been fiddling with carb jetting, great economy, now valve burnt out

 

Engine stopped, my maintennacr recently been a bit " how you going"recently, guess thats why

 

No excuse why analysis not done though

 

Maybe RAA could develop contact list of places to get analysis or assessment done?

 

 

[turboplanner]

For instance, in a thru bolt failure, do they know which particular bolt/s failed? Were the bolts seated properly? Did anyone inspect threads for stress raisers? What was the state of combustion chambers? What about all other moving parts? Who did an analysis of fuel or oil?

That would be nice to have, so people could reduce their operating costs.

 

However the SAFETY statistic is the number of forced landings.

 

There were either x No of forced landings last year or there weren't, and that's not that hard to prove if RAA is quoting the statistics they collect.

 

It's the frequency and growth in the number of forced landings that's the safety issue.